Who are you voting for? Read this first!

[wallysurfr]

Dear Friends,

I must preface this e-mail by saying this; I opposed the Iraq War from the beginning, I despise the Neo-Cons, I never voted for George Bush and if I am a Republican, I am a Lincoln-Roosevelt Republican, not a Bush-Cheney Republican. Though I hate John McCain, I love America more (Or at least, I "intensely despise" McCain). What do these things have to do with one another? Wel,l that's what I'd like to explain. Who is this man named Barack Hussein Obama? What does he stand for? And considering his many flip-flops (go to http://massdiscussion.blogspot.com/2008/06/collection-of-obama-flip-flops.html), what are his real positions? I suggest that we examine what Obama said he believed before he became a national celebrity and the truth became politically inconvenient. (http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2007/12/the_obama_questionnaire.html)

Barack Hussein Obama Jr. was born to Barack Hussein Obama Sr., an agnostic Muslim communist, and Ann Dunham, an atheist Marxist feminist. Despite Obama's whitewashing of his fathers' true character (In "Dreams of My Father"), Obama Sr. abandoned him and his mother to pursue a degree at Harvard, turning down another offer that would have kept his family together. Obama Jr. was raised alternately by his mother and his mother's grandparents when the former ditched him to pursue her career traveling the world.

While in Hawaii, Obama's early influences were communist revolutionary Frantz Fanon and black supremacist and socialist Malcolm X, both of whom he read with great interest and quoted with much approval. Obama's personal mentor while he lived in Hawaii was a man name Frank Marshall Davis, a communist and a revolutionary poet.
(http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75478)

Shortly after Obama moved to Chicago, he began attending Trinity United Methodist Church pastored by Jeremiah Wright. For over 20 years Barack Hussein Obama listened to sermons laced with racist "black liberation theology." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liberation_theology) And though you may respond by saying that John Hagee supported John McCain, John McCain did not belong to Hagee's church or sit in Hagee's church pews for 20 years. Obama only disowned Wright after he was "found out" by the mass media. Obama at first denied ever hearing anything controversial in Wright's sermons and then admitted that he did in his "More Perfect Union" speech in Philadelphia in March 2008.

Obama made some important connections while in Chicago, linking himself with the slumlord Tony Rezko who has been indicted on charges of wire fraud, bribery, money laundering, and attempted extortion. Obama paid him political favors while serving in the Illinois state Senate while Rezko got Obama a lucrative land deal.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Rezko#Legal_troubles)

Obama also connected himself with Bill Ayers, founder of the Marxist terrorist "Weather Underground", and his wife Bernadine Dohrn, also a former leader of Weather Underground. Regardless of what the Obama campaign ads state, saying "Obama was only 8 years old when Ayers committed his crimes," that's not the point. Ayers and Dohrn are unrepentant terrorists, and Obama accepted money and support from them in his campaigns for the Illinois state Senate. Despite what the Obama campaign claims, Obama and Ayers are still on good terms and have met with each other numerous times post-911, with Ayers lamenting he didn't do enough terrorism.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_ayers#Obama-Ayers_Controversy)

For those of you who think an inexperienced Obama will surround himself with good advisers, I ask you to read over his list of associates a few more times.

On the international front Obama supported "democratic socialist" (politically correct communist) Raila Amollo Odinga of the ODM (Orange Democratic Movement), the son of communist former Kenyan Vice-President Jaramogi Ajuma Oginga Odinga (whom Obama Sr. supported), for the presidency of Kenya when he visited Kenya. (To read the ODM platform go to http://kenyavotes.org/node/107)

The endorsements Barack Obama's campaign will not advertise are his endorsements from Kim Jong-Ill, Castro, Chavez, Ortega, Hamas, Achmenijad, Farrakhan, and the New Black Panther Party. If you don't know who any of these men are, I suggest you look them up.

This brings me to the issue of "change." The word "change," along with "unity" are both by-word slogans of Marxist radical Saul Alinsky. ( http://fromtheduke.blogspot.com/2008/05/saul-alinsky-another-obama-mentor-from.html) To read Alinsky's book and Obama's textbook for change, "Rules For Radicals" go to the pro-Alinsky website if you like (http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/alinski.htm).

So what is my point? Obama will bring change alright. Am I saying he will bring a Marxist or Communist revolution to America? In a sense I guess, but he won't call it that. Maybe they'll call it the generic version instead "democratic socialism."

For those of you who don't believe me, an argument that you might relate to is this: go to http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Barack_Obama.htm and ask yourselves this question, with a Democrat filibuster proof super-majority in the Senate, how much damage, I mean "change", will they be able to do.

For those of you who find that prospect a potential paradise on Earth, remember Clinton in 1993-1994, NAFTA and the WTO. The Democrats are just as Globalist as the Republicans, the only difference is that the democrats would surrender our sovereign rights to the United Nations before acting. In a "World Democracy" such as the UN seeks to create, it will be like 200 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner, I think you can figure out who's the sheep. (To read more on the globalism of Barack Obama, go to http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070701faessay86401/barack-obama/renewing-american-leadership.html)

Another practical argument is this, with Barack Obama proposing a trillion dollars in new spending (go tohttp://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/2/14/obamas-trillion-dollar-spending-plan.html) and proposing "middle class" tax cuts, where is he going to get the money? Increased government spending, lower taxes? It sounds like the Bush-Cheney fiscal policy. Obama will not raise taxes on his rich friends (the Democrats are after all the party of the rich (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NmE4NWY3Yjc4YmJmMDJmOGU0ZmQwNGE0MjNlMDJiZTY=) So how will he raise the money for all this new spending? Probably by raising the capital gains tax. For those of you who say, "Great, 'soak the rich,'" ponder this question. With no trade barriers keeping American companies here (Obama will not change that, read his own campaign's assurances to the Free Traders), do you honestly expect them to stay here under those circumstances? Guess what that means? More jobs lost to overseas.

In closing, I'm not asking you to vote for McCain, for the sake of my future, your children's future and your grandchildren or nephews and nieces future, I'm asking you NOT to vote for Obama (and a vote for McCain is just that). I will make this prediction now. If Barack Obama is elected President and the Democrats achieve a filibuster proof super-majority in the Senate, one of the first things they will do is pass amnesty for the 13-20 million illegal immigrants here (A Democratic majority will never let McCain get credit for this, even if he wants it). Those 13-20 million will not only depress the wages of American workers, they will also form a solid Democrat voting bloc for the foreseeable future. Obama's presidency will be the worst and most devastating in American history, and despite this fact, he will probably win reelection in 2012, having secured a lock on the presidency thanks to those grateful naturalized illegal aliens. The Democrats will continue to win election after election, driving this country further and further into the ground. By 2050 or sooner, America will be a minority-majority country (Not to sound "racist," but can we honestly expect America to remain a First World nation with a Third World population?), there will be no middle class to speak of, and the best situation we can hope for is to be a new "Brazil." That is, to be a highly stratified country with a small elite, no middle class and a large underclass, that is, of course, if America is even around by then. She may after all divide into various successor states like the Roman Empire did, with concentrated ethnic and immigrant populations forming new nations in various regions. If I sound like an alarmist, I am. The best situation we can hope for is 4 years of McCain and someone new on the horizon to turn things around (And I'm not talking about Sarah Palin, Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton). This election may hold the fate of America in its hands. I am a forgiving person, but our posterity may not be. Let us not imagine the day when they curse our names for what we did to them by our action or inaction.

Thank you for reading.

[OBlove]

not sure what to say to all of this? i really want to go surf? i want to move to another country? who knows? probally just a cold one i guess....

[kelly slater]

amen... damn liberal media

[LoveCore]

Living in Delaware and attending the University of Delaware, I am surrounded by people who are head over heels in love with this guy. I cannot see eye to eye with them. I fail to see why he is so popular and how he still has such a huge following despite all of this factual information being out there, available to the general public. Its like He has them brainwashed. It is very troublesome. I do not look forward to the results of this election either. Kudos to gathering all this info and putting it together nicely. I'm already with you.

[jbird]

This is the same blind paranoid crap that got Bush elected for another 4 years. Yeah, let's continue that trend while we watch joblessness go up and our savings disappear and nobody can afford a mortgage anymore. I don't know about you, Mr. Deep pockets but I can stand a little of the wealth being spread around.

[tommyh]

Don't vote for him because his middle name is Hussein...What a bunch of BS. He may not be the best candidate but he is much better than the war mongral McCain. That essay sounds like typical far right scare tactics, you have been listening to Rush Limbaw too much. Having Obama in the White House will improve foreign sentiment of our country so much it is incredible. This alone will bring in more foreign investment and additional efforts from all over the world to help us beat those American hating terrorists. McCain/Palin will just increase the hate from outside our borders and who knows what McCain will do with his finger on the trigger.

[scotty]

Love the "first world vs. third world" country part.

"America will be a minority-majority country (Not to sound "racist," but can we honestly expect America to remain a First World nation with a Third World population?)"

Thanks for the assurance that you're not sounding racist.

[jnash]

You are indeed entitled to your opinion and after reading you entry and all corresponding web links I have come to the conclusion that what I have read is just that....an opinion. I won't take the time to sit here and refute your post as you have made some good points but I will say Barack Obama "In my opinion" is not a threat to our way of life in this country. To me Obama represents us. Us being young Americans, Americans that have been raised by baby boomers and post baby boomers in the computer era of our relatively young country. No baby boomer envy's us No old timers envy us, the day and age we have grown up in has been fast paced as far as technology, moral change, production, consumption, communication, privacy(the lack there of) etc.... many old ideas no longer apply the way they once did and Its time for change, maybe not revolutionary change but radical change. We need to change the role we have played in the world and understand that Democracy doesn't work in all situations or nations. Its time for China to step up and start acting like the world leading superpower that they have become and attempt save the world by spreading foreign aid to all corners of the globe, while spending outrageous amounts of money thus allowing The United States to cut our debt owed to China by offering support (not full military obligation). I don't believe Obama stands for socialism more than any other politician and we must understand that some of the "Socialist activities" our government has been participating in have been brought on by Capitalism and the producer/consumer cycle we are so heavily invested in. Federally owned banks have been an inevitability we have been facing since 1929 and are not the bastard child of any one political party. Sure Obama probably will raise taxes but so will John McCain, we've got to pay for $850,000,000,000 worth of banks and homes the federal govt just invested in. I don't believe Obama will turn out to be some revolutionary communist but I do believe he sees thru the old concept that the impoverished lower class are a necessary byproduct of capitalism. I believe Obama has a strong grasp that the Middle Class creates the Upper Class and not the opposite. We are a country full of regular people almost incapable of a true revolution with the exception of a coup de' etat and with that I feel secure in my decision to Support Barack Obama for President. As always opinions are like a$$h0les......everybody's got one!


Obama/Biden 08

This message has been approved by deez nutz
put em in yo maif

[Lumpy]

Don't vote for him because his middle name is Hussein...What a bunch of BS. He may not be the best candidate but he is much better than the war mongral McCain. That essay sounds like typical far right scare tactics, you have been listening to Rush Limbaw too much. Having Obama in the White House will improve foreign sentiment of our country so much it is incredible. This alone will bring in more foreign investment and additional efforts from all over the world to help us beat those American hating terrorists. McCain/Palin will just increase the hate from outside our borders and who knows what McCain will do with his finger on the trigger.

Because Obama has great bull****ting abilities means that foreign sentiment will improve???

Because Obama has great bull****ting abilities means that more foreign investment will come into the country??

The hate for the country has no party lines....it is all based on the jealousy of our freedoms and rights and our wealth...including our freedoms and rights to vote for whomever we want.

Thank you....thank you very much..

[Db2k5]

I don't know about you, Mr. Deep pockets but I can stand a little of the wealth being spread around.

I'm not sure you really know what that means. Karl Marx also wanted to spread the wealth around. There is a reason socialism doesn't work.

P.S. and don't try to tell me that it's not socialism, like every other lib out there. If you don't think he is socialist, than you my friend, don't live in reality.

[wallysurfr]

jnash,

I was interested in your post and the points you were making until I read the last two lines and all went to nil.

To the last few people who have posted: Do you know what The United States of America was founded on? Do you know what The Constitution states?

I don't know where you are from but where I am from there are too many families that have no motivation to go out and MAKE a living. They get their check from the gov every month and the sick thing is they live in nicer houses and drive newer/nicer cars than me! Obama says he will give a tax CREDIT to over 90% of the population, what he doesn't tell you is that almost 45% of the population doesn't pay income taxes! That means, when you graduate from college and get a job and work hard and save your money for YOUR family, you will be essentially writing out a check to that family around the corner who has no motivation to go out and make a living. Yet, they still keep having children they can't afford and their children's children are starting to have babies that THEY can't afford. There are families in this country that are THIRD generation wellfare!

Now, I believe in helping people out when they are in need. Help them get back on their feet. But when the gov takes money from my paycheck and GIVES it to these people who have NO intention of getting back on their feet, I have a problem with that and you will too when you see how much you pay in taxes once you start your career. And for those of you who already have an established career, how can you sit back and agree with the spending that Obama has planned for us? All that spending with tax cuts? Not possible! Something will give and I gaurantee it will be us!

His infomercial the other night is a precursor to the type of spending that he will impose on this country. If you know anything about economics then you know that, within a recession, if you raise taxes and "spread it around" to all the people who are on wellfare then you push the recession into a depression and that's a fact for anyone who has studied The Depression. Let those people go out and get a job, start a small business, become and entrepreneur, it's called free enterprise, not free money! That is what this country is founded on isn't it?

[BeachCruiser01]

As a former member of the Republican't party, I am voting for Barack Obama. The past eight years we have seen the dollar lose 40% of it value, gas as double in price (it was 1.35 a gal. when Bush took office). I voted for and volunteered for the first term Bush. But everything the Republican't has touched has turned to crap. Katrina, cutting taxes during a war, enourmous gov't spending increases without oversight, wall street meltdown, the cluster*%($ that is Iraq. Need I go on?
As for McCain, his campaign has been bipolar at best. One minute Obama is an honorable man, then hes a socialist, then a communist, then its back to, he's not ready to be president "yet". The charge that Obama is inexperienced went out the window with Palin's pick. How can anyone take the McCain campaign suggestion that she is the most qualified person in the country to be VP? What about Governor Linda Lingle of Hawaii? 2 term republican, well liked by the mostly non white masses and governs over more people and a bigger budget than Alaska. But then again she isn't a bible thumping theocrat.
But seriously the quote "(Not to sound "racist," but can we honestly expect America to remain a First World nation with a Third World population?)" That quote alone should discredit the entire post. We are a nation of immigrants. When people were fleeing Europe, they weren't the rich "First Worlders" , they were the "third world" white people of Europe.
I could go on but the bottom line is John McCain was the guy that the Republicans thought was too old back in 2000 when he first ran. Replublican'ts have gotten it wrong on everything in the last 8 years and McCain was right there with them, supporting Bush.
Vote Obama, at least he will try and keep a living ocean for us to surf in.

[Zansurf]

Because Obama has great bull****ting abilities means that foreign sentiment will improve???

Because Obama has great bull****ting abilities means that more foreign investment will come into the country??

The hate for the country has no party lines....it is all based on the jealousy of our freedoms and rights and our wealth...including our freedoms and rights to vote for whomever we want.

Thank you....thank you very much..

Dude i don't buy that jealous of our freedom crap for one second. Terrorist groups don't exist out of jealousy dude. Believe it or not we cause our own problems in the middle east, and you know how? This unwavering support for Israel. We realized the instability in the region a long time ago so what did we do? We backed the guys with the biggest guns, that is, the nuclear bomb. So basically we sit over here and talk up Israel as the only stabilizing force in the middle east, but if anything we are just trying to cover our asses with the guys who are most likely to win. Well groups like Al Qaeda set out to show us they don't need the biggest guns to show that they are pissed off and won't be pushed around. I'm in no way supporting terrorism, but trying to but a little rational though into the situation. I can't stand you people with the "America is the greatest country ever" stuff. I think the America is the greatest country FOR US!!!! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else but part of being a patriot is questioning your government and making sure it's doing the best job it can. Which brings me to my reason for backing Obama. His plan for a diplomatic foreign policy is the best chance we have at repairing relations with countries like Iran and North Korea because unlike Bush he is willing to have a conversation, and heaven forbid compromise to find a solution to our past problems. If all we do is call people out on a national stage and make threats we will continue to see threats of violence. As far as all the communist, socialist talks are concerned, it seems a bit paranoid to me but hey if it happens ill be there to take Obama down just like everyone else.

[Volcom732]

John McCain looks like Mr. Roboto, the guy can't even lift his arms, so he without a doubt cannot go for a surf. More importantly, the fact that he cannot move his arms in an un-robot-like manner means that he will most likely pass away during his four years in office. (actually a 33% chance statistically that will occur) and then we will have Mrs. I read any and all magazines, Mrs. I'll have to get back to ya, Mrs. I can see Russia from my house, Mrs. "Joe Sixpack". Mrs. Bipartisan Maverick running the god damn country. At least if Obama goes, we will have a person who has real experience, and not someone who just got their passport last year. Screw McCain and Nailin Palin (a new porno coming out) and go democratic.

[oipaul]

John McCain looks like Mr. Roboto, the guy can't even lift his arms, so he without a doubt cannot go for a surf. More importantly, the fact that he cannot move his arms in an un-robot-like manner means that he will most likely pass away during his four years in office. (actually a 33% chance statistically that will occur) and then we will have Mrs. I read any and all magazines, Mrs. I'll have to get back to ya, Mrs. I can see Russia from my house, Mrs. "Joe Sixpack". Mrs. Bipartisan Maverick running the god damn country. At least if Obama goes, we will have a person who has real experience, and not someone who just got their passport last year. Screw McCain and Nailin Palin (a new porno coming out) and go democratic.

Wow. My IQ just dropped like 10 points after reading that. You are the reason the Electoral College exists.

[wallysurfr]

I am not opposed to immigrants, my grandmother came here from Sweden. I am, however, against ILLEGAL immigrants and that is not racist at all. They are breaking the law and as US citizens we should want laws enforced.

Have we been attacked since 9/11? Take a look at a chart for The Dow Jones Industrial Average over the past 50+ years and you tell me where you think it "should" be trading. It's pretty obvious that everything started becoming over inflated during the Clinton administration, the same president who lifted the regulations on the banks and FORCED the banks to lend to people who CAN"T afford a house. That is what caused the environment for this type of CORRECTION (not crisis).

The dems say that the past eight years have been the worst, yet the market hit multiple all time highs during that time and we still haven't been attacked since 9/11. But according the Obama/Biden that will all change during the first six months of his term. "Mark my words"

[Zansurf]

I'm not sure you really know what that means. Karl Marx also wanted to spread the wealth around. There is a reason socialism doesn't work.

P.S. and don't try to tell me that it's not socialism, like every other lib out there. If you don't think he is socialist, than you my friend, don't live in reality.

What about McCain's claim he wants to buy up all the bad mortgages? The government owning the mortgage to my house sounds pretty socialist to me. Socialism hasn't worked because it was forced on people in the past. The true dominance of socialism will only arise when the lower classes rise up in their position as the working class to realize their power in the production of goods and services. It is an idea based primarily on the industrialization that took place during the 18 and 1900's. The role of technology will one day stomp out any true possibilty for a marxist society and the true nature of past communist regimes will be realized. They were facist dictatorships under the guise of standing up for the worker. In a true marxist state the poverty that existed in the former soviet union and other countries doesn't exist in the utopian society described by Marx.

[wallysurfr]

The reason "Mr. Roboto" moves his arms that way is because they have been broken multiple times while being tortured when he was a prisoner of war, defending this country, our rights and our freedoms. So we can go surfing whenever we want on a $600 piece of foam without even thinking twice about it.

[StuckinVA]

This is the same blind paranoid crap that got Bush elected for another 4 years. Yeah, let's continue that trend while we watch joblessness go up and our savings disappear and nobody can afford a mortgage anymore. I don't know about you, Mr. Deep pockets but I can stand a little of the wealth being spread around.


I concur. Enough with the scare tactics. Stop being afraid.

How can the neo-cons be trusted with our well-being when the only attack on our soil in the last 40+ years occurred on their watch. They knew there was a threat and chose not to take it seriously. If you want to be afraid, you should be frightened of them remaining in charge.

[BeachCruiser01]

Current "socialist" systems in the United States:
- K-12 educational system.
- State College system.
- Police protection and in major metro areas, Fire Protection. EMTs if they aren't private.
- Parks, federal, state and local.
- Roads & Highways.
- Social Security
- Medicare
- Hoover damn power generation.
- Phone and electrical power delivery to rural areas.

Current systems that are socialist leaning:
- Farm subsidies.
- Private colleges who get research grants.
- Airline subsidies
- Anything that is a "public-private" partnership. An example: Nuclear power plants being insured by the federal government because no one else will insure them.
- Federal gov'ts buy into the banking system.
- Feds buy into AIG, the largest insurer in the world. Think I could get a break on my car insurance?

So the next time you drive down the road (public money) and surf the break that was recently repleneshed(public money). Or drive into the park at Indian River Inlet (public money) and surf the beach that has been replenished with sand paid for by the Army Corps of Engineers (public money).
Just remember somebody else paid for those things with tax dollars miles away from where you are surfing.

[rgnsup]

Please don't let my next statement make you think any different of me... tho most of you do not know me already...


But **** IT! The gov't is crooked as **** and won't ever change. No one man/woman is going to change that.

[wallysurfr]

What about McCain's claim he wants to buy up all the bad mortgages? The government owning the mortgage to my house sounds pretty socialist to me. Socialism hasn't worked because it was forced on people in the past. The true dominance of socialism will only arise when the lower classes rise up in their position as the working class to realize their power in the production of goods and services. It is an idea based primarily on the industrialization that took place during the 18 and 1900's. The role of technology will one day stomp out any true possibilty for a marxist society and the true nature of past communist regimes will be realized. They were facist dictatorships under the guise of standing up for the worker. In a true marxist state the poverty that existed in the former soviet union and other countries doesn't exist in the utopian society described by Marx.

why would the lower class rise up into the working class when they can sit home, make babies and collect their checks?

It's like this test I took once, I studied for days, the class was hard, this test was going to decide whether I graduated with above a 3.0 or below. Hours and hours. Finally, the day of the test came and I crushed it because I put the time in. The professor handed back the tests and said "not everyone did as well as I thought so, we are going to grade this one on a curve". He added fifteen points to everyone who scored below a 70, he added ten points to everyone who scored below an 80, he added five points to everone who scored below a 90 and nothing for the rest. I could have paddled out and still gotten the same grade that I did but I knew that I wanted to work for my grade and the outcome was not "fair" at all. The people who did nothing ended up getting the same or close to the same grade that I got!

Is this like Obama's plan for "spreading it around"? the answer is surprisingly NO! Instead of the "professor" just giving out 15 points to those who didn't want to work he will be TAKING those points from your score and giving them to the people who were lazy, you know, just levelling the "playing field" a little bit. Does that sound right to you guys? I hope the students out there can relate to this...

[Zansurf]

Current "socialist" systems in the United States:
- K-12 educational system.
- State College system.
- Police protection and in major metro areas, Fire Protection. EMTs if they aren't private.
- Parks, federal, state and local.
- Roads & Highways.
- Social Security
- Medicare
- Hoover damn power generation.
- Phone and electrical power delivery to rural areas.

Current systems that are socialist leaning:
- Farm subsidies.
- Private colleges who get research grants.
- Airline subsidies
- Anything that is a "public-private" partnership. An example: Nuclear power plants being insured by the federal government because no one else will insure them.
- Federal gov'ts buy into the banking system.
- Feds buy into AIG, the largest insurer in the world. Think I could get a break on my car insurance?

So the next time you drive down the road (public money) and surf the break that was recently repleneshed(public money). Or drive into the park at Indian River Inlet (public money) and surf the beach that has been replenished with sand paid for by the Army Corps of Engineers (public money).
Just remember somebody else paid for those things with tax dollars miles away from where you are surfing.

I can't tell if your happy about this or not, but i just thought i would add that it would be sick if college was free in this country.

[Aguaholic]

we are screwed either way whomever wins.....IMO both candidates suck.....I hate politics. I just wanna surf!

[scotty]

I can't tell if your happy about this or not, but i just thought i would add that it would be sick if college was free in this country.

i think his point is how ironic it was to hear McCain and his running mate Joe the Plumber act so shocked about wealth redistribution and socialism, when its been all around us, and we've all supported the parts of it we like, for as long as any of us can remember.

[aka pumpmaster]

I concur. Enough with the scare tactics. Stop being afraid.

How can the neo-cons be trusted with our well-being when the only attack on our soil in the last 40+ years occurred on their watch. They knew there was a threat and chose not to take it seriously. If you want to be afraid, you should be frightened of them remaining in charge.

You do realize of course the Bill Clinton had 2 chances to get Bin Laden and didn't take them right?

[mtd]

I dunno, to me this whole argument about surfing and bodyboarding is as silly as skiing vs snowboarding - I mean, I think its all about havin' fun ridin' waves and...

wait.... what?... whoops! sorry, wrong thread....:o

[rgnsup]

we are screwed either way whomever wins.....imo both candidates suck.....i hate politics. I just wanna surf!

amen!!!!!!!!!

[beachbreak]

must be flat.
or i'm on the wrong website.
is this swellinfo?
this thread is gay.
i hate politics.
vote,and shut up.
whoever becomes president is not God,so if you actually believe he can singlehandedly make your life wonderful you're ignorant.
obama and mccain are just two people,and worse yet,they are politicians.

[brandx]

Alexander Fraser Tytler - an 18th cent. lawyer is attributed with this interesting observation


A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

Consider the US government is 232 years old and seems to be generally following this pattern. Perhaps living on borrowed time ?

[lisurfer]

Though Obama does have some disconcerting acquaintances it isn't the main issue in this election. These people will not have a major impact if he is elected.

The main issue of this election is the economy. When the economy crashed around a month ago it almost locked Obama up the election.

Obama's economic plan is highly flawed. If all of his entitlement plans were put into place in the next 4 years it would cost the U.S. 2 trillion dollars. We do not have this money and it would sink us into a greater national debt. His tax plan is even worse. I don't mind the overall idea of helping the poor but this plan would hurt the middle class. His plan calls for the corporate tax to increase almost 20%. If companies are taxed more it will hurt everyone. Most companies will be forced to downsize if they want to stay in profit. Also, it will force many companies to move out of the country so they can operate with less taxes. Even worse consumers may well have to pay more for products to make up for the tax increases. Surf board companies will need to change there approach. They will either raise the already super high sticker price on a board or cut back on developing technology to make boards and wetsuit better. How are companies going to give you a raise or higher new people if more money is taken from their bottom line. In this economic time we need companies to gain more freedoms so they can grow and higher more people. If Obama is elected it will be highly unlikely to enact this legislation because the country will realize it won't work.

I am voting for John McCain.

[beachbreak]

micah,do you think there will be waves this weekend?
if so,what kind of wetsuit should i wear?

[kelly slater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5_T6CfHvE

$300,000

$250,000

$150,000

ect.

infanticide...

http://www.secureputer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/obama-wright.jpg

(heres another reason for the middle east to hate us)
Obama is a target for assassination, not because he is black but because he is a Muslim apostate, according to devout Muslims around the world. Therefore, he cannot be a good Chief Diplomat to the Middle East.

However, through Frank Marshall Davis, Obama had an admitted relationship with someone who was publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA). The record shows that Obama was in Hawaii from 1971-1979, where, at some point in time, he developed a close relationship, almost like a son, with Davis, listening to his “poetry” and getting advice on his career path. But Obama, in his book, Dreams From My Father, refers to him repeatedly as just “Frank.”

Tony Rezko, Eric Holder, Jim Johnson - look them up


Most politicians have at least one skeleton in their closet. Obama seems to have an entire family of skeletons. If he wasn't the media's "anointed one" or was a conservative (Rep or Dem) he would be just be a "community organizer" turned second term senator.

Bill Ayers

The LA Times Tape of Obama having dinner PLO member

The Liberal media and the Democratic party should have looked into this guys background before the began worshipping him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&eurl=http://www.dontvoteobama.net/

"I think he can be ready, but right now, I don't think he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on the job training." - Senator Joe Biden (If his own running mate has doubts about whether he's ready for the job... shouldn't you?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsMWun2ktXI&feature=related - ooopppsss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leEcpFOrulY&feature=related --- Bush is still the worst public speaker though...

should I keep going? I mean I am not happy with either candidates but how could anyone vote for a guy with this much baggage. I never thought I would say this but Hilary sounds good right now...ewww


KS

[oipaul]

"When elephants fight, its the grass that suffers"
Cleanup sets are on the Horizon, prepare for long Hold-downs...:p

[beachbreak]

in this crowded world,the surfer can still seek and find the perfect day,the perfect wave,and be alone with the surf and his thoughts

[eastcoastgilson]

Definitely voting for McCain. Obama has very little experience, wants to pull out of Iraq soon, is friends with a terrorist, and wants to, in his own words, "spread the wealth" = socialism. Not what our country needs at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU9iCANi02o

Check out this video.....he's some American not even saluting the UNITED STATES flag and he very well may be our next president?!?!?! wow

Also, something to think about......people say that if Obama wins this election, it will be an "Obama nation". Put the two words together and what do you get??????? I think thats a sign lol

McCain 08!

.....Obama came to talk at our school (JMU) and people were going crazy. The liberal college student votes are gona kill us

[beachbreak]

please take your gay thread to a political website.

[wallysurfr]

please take your gay thread to a political website.

no, this is an open forum and we have talked about surfing so if you don't like it then don't read it.

Kelly Slater, the best surfer (and possibly the best athlete) to ever live is voting McCain. Need I say more??

It's a proven fact, if Obama tried to get a job with the CIA, FBI or even as a civilian within the federal government, he would be denied because of his links with the people he has surorunded himself by. As someone with a secret level security clearance, I must say, this is the biggest red flag of them all!

[jnash]

ll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU9iCANi02o

Check out this video.....he's some American not even saluting the UNITED STATES flag and he very well may be our next president?!?!?! wow

Also, something to think about......people say that if Obama wins this election, it will be an "Obama nation". Put the two words together and what do you get??????? I think thats a sign lol

McCain 08!

.....Obama came to talk at our school (JMU) and people were going crazy. The liberal college student votes are gona kill us

It is not tradition in the United States to hold your hand over your heart during the national anthem, that action is reserved for pledging.

[kelly slater]

thank you thats very kind


ks

[Zansurf]

why would the lower class rise up into the working class when they can sit home, make babies and collect their checks?

It's like this test I took once, I studied for days, the class was hard, this test was going to decide whether I graduated with above a 3.0 or below. Hours and hours. Finally, the day of the test came and I crushed it because I put the time in. The professor handed back the tests and said "not everyone did as well as I thought so, we are going to grade this one on a curve". He added fifteen points to everyone who scored below a 70, he added ten points to everyone who scored below an 80, he added five points to everone who scored below a 90 and nothing for the rest. I could have paddled out and still gotten the same grade that I did but I knew that I wanted to work for my grade and the outcome was not "fair" at all. The people who did nothing ended up getting the same or close to the same grade that I got!

Is this like Obama's plan for "spreading it around"? the answer is surprisingly NO! Instead of the "professor" just giving out 15 points to those who didn't want to work he will be TAKING those points from your score and giving them to the people who were lazy, you know, just levelling the "playing field" a little bit. Does that sound right to you guys? I hope the students out there can relate to this...

That was simply a discussion on Marxist theory and had no application for American politics. I understand your complaint, but you need to go back and talk to FDR before he created much of the new deal, and stop worrying about Obama or McCain because neither one of them will undo those policies anyway. Even if Obama tries to expand the government and the welfare state, we always have the supreme court thats what it's there for. The welfare state was created when there was a need for it, and it's hard to overturn something that has 80 years of precedent.

[wallysurfr]

no, it's called cut the pork!

[Zansurf]

no, it's called cut the pork!

I'm gonna revert back to my statement that it's hard to change something with so much precedent. The president has nothing to do with pork barrel spending.

[jbird]

[QUOTE=eastcoastgilson;21689]Definitely voting for McCain. Obama has very little experience, wants to pull out of Iraq soon,

Dude, are you seriously saying that wanting to end a 10 Billion dollar a month war that is sending soldiers back dead or with limbs blown off in a country that hates us and a war that was made up in the first place is a bad thing?

[aka pumpmaster]

I'm gonna revert back to my statement that it's hard to change something with so much precedent. The president has nothing to do with pork barrel spending.

Under our system, a bill cannot become a law until the president signs it correct?

[Db2k5]

People are upperclass because they went out and became that way. They didn't party thier way through high school and flunk out of college. Liberals are quick to want everything to be fair. Guess what, life isn't fair GET OVER IT. Grow up, you sound like a 4 year old. Remember, we are given life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, we aren't garunteed happiness. We are garunteed that we are able to go out and get whatever we want. Nothing in this world is free, and you IGNORANT liberals asking for a handout all the time and wanting things to be fair sounds like a 13 year old girl. Just because you work a **** job, and are lazy doesn't mean that people should have to give you money because you can't get out of your own way. On one hand, people ***** about government spending, then they want the government to give them free everything, healthcare, schooling, food, daycare, the next thing you know, you idiots are going to be asking for a damn car. Grow up.

To the rational people out there, who aren't total MEATBALLS, sorry for my rant.

[Db2k5]

[QUOTE=eastcoastgilson;21689]Definitely voting for McCain. Obama has very little experience, wants to pull out of Iraq soon,

Dude, are you seriously saying that wanting to end a 10 Billion dollar a month war that is sending soldiers back dead or with limbs blown off in a country that hates us and a war that was made up in the first place is a bad thing?

You don't get it. If we pull out now, we will have to go right back over there in another 10 years. Remember desert storm? There is a reason we are back in iraq.

[wallysurfr]

spot on Db2k5

if only this guy would run for president I think we would all be in better shape...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-5F_7DwPpo

he wouldn't take crap from anyone...

[Swellinfo]

Under our system, a bill cannot become a law until the president signs it correct?

incorrect. if a bill is vetoed by the president, it gets sent back to congress, who can overturn the veto with a two thirds vote:

http://www.votesmart.org/resource_govt101_02.php

[aka pumpmaster]

Very true Micah but my point was that the President (by nature of signing spending bills) DOES have an impact on pork barrel spending.

[OBlove]

I am not opposed to immigrants, my grandmother came here from Sweden. I am, however, against ILLEGAL immigrants and that is not racist at all. They are breaking the law and as US citizens we should want laws enforced.

Have we been attacked since 9/11? Take a look at a chart for The Dow Jones Industrial Average over the past 50+ years and you tell me where you think it "should" be trading. It's pretty obvious that everything started becoming over inflated during the Clinton administration, the same president who lifted the regulations on the banks and FORCED the banks to lend to people who CAN"T afford a house. That is what caused the environment for this type of CORRECTION (not crisis).

The dems say that the past eight years have been the worst, yet the market hit multiple all time highs during that time and we still haven't been attacked since 9/11. But according the Obama/Biden that will all change during the first six months of his term. "Mark my words"

Your quote did not have intentions of your Swedish Grandmother. Your quote was directly aimed at African Americans. My Dad is black and I don't like you. Does anyone know where I can get some dub-dubs for my Escalade? And whens the next swell going to hit, this forum is heating up from our little flatspell and I need to cool off???

[jbird]

[QUOTE=jbird;21697]

You don't get it. If we pull out now, we will have to go right back over there in another 10 years. Remember desert storm? There is a reason we are back in iraq.

Remember Viet Nam. I don't care how long we stay there, as soon as we leave it will revert back to chaos until another dictator or religious zealot takes over. That's the way it has been for thousand of years and we will never change that ideology.

[Aguaholic]

Watch till the end....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8

[aka pumpmaster]

[QUOTE=Db2k5;21701]

Remember Viet Nam. I don't care how long we stay there, as soon as we leave it will revert back to chaos until another dictator or religious zealot takes over. That's the way it has been for thousand of years and we will never change that ideology.

Comparing Iraq to Vietnam is retarded. You're in college aren't you?

[wallysurfr]

Your quote did not have intentions of your Swedish Grandmother. Your quote was directly aimed at African Americans. My Dad is black and I don't like you. Does anyone know where I can get some dub-dubs for my Escalade? And whens the next swell going to hit, this forum is heating up from our little flatspell and I need to cool off???


I hope your joking. The statement was not directed at african americans but immigrants who are here ILLEGALLY. That means they are not supposed to be here -or- they are breaking the LAW by being here.

[tommyh]

No other countries actual do not like our gov't because they act like police for the World, and having someone that has a similar name or looks more like them will make other countries believe that anything truly is possible in the USA and that we are not all just full of the "freedom" touting BS but sticking to the same old thing as always.


Because Obama has great bull****ting abilities means that foreign sentiment will improve???

Because Obama has great bull****ting abilities means that more foreign investment will come into the country??

The hate for the country has no party lines....it is all based on the jealousy of our freedoms and rights and our wealth...including our freedoms and rights to vote for whomever we want.

Thank you....thank you very much..

[aka pumpmaster]

Actually its more like this:

"The hate for the country has no party lines....it is all based on the jealousy of our freedoms and rights and our wealth...including our freedoms and rights to vote for whomever we want."

Especially in the muslim countries. Do some research on womens rights and the husband/wife dynamic in muslim areas. Muslim men are terrified of womens rights since that totally undermines their authority. So the preach hatred for the west (of which the US is the leader) as a way to keep those ideas from springing up.

[jbird]

[QUOTE=jbird;21709]

Comparing Iraq to Vietnam is retarded. You're in college aren't you?

Review your history bright one. Name one "confilict" the U.S. has gotten into in the last 40years that has resulted in anything changing? What makes Iraq so damn critical that we should spent one more day there? Oil?

[aka pumpmaster]

[QUOTE=aka pumpmaster;21712]

Review your history bright one. Name one "confilict" the U.S. has gotten into in the last 40years that has resulted in anything changing? What makes Iraq so damn critical that we should spent one more day there? Oil?

Grenada for one. Panama for 2. Bosnia for 3. Shall I keep going.

Your Vietnam analogy is STILL retarded.

[eastcoastgilson]

[QUOTE=eastcoastgilson;21689]Definitely voting for McCain. Obama has very little experience, wants to pull out of Iraq soon,

Dude, are you seriously saying that wanting to end a 10 Billion dollar a month war that is sending soldiers back dead or with limbs blown off in a country that hates us and a war that was made up in the first place is a bad thing?

Hahahahahahaha yes i know establishing a Democracy and removing a dictator is such a terrible thing. Training 400,000 of their own soldiers in order to create a stable government. If we don't finish the job (Obama), Iran might take over and all the work of our soldiers would be worth nothing.

[wbsurfer]

politics suck so do all the presidential candidates. i cant vote but still from watching the debates they all suck they dont even care about us surfers so how about a surfer run for president then ill vote for you. but none of the presidents or vps dont care about us and dont really care about us.

[JonAngot12]

vote for the hawaiian.

[wallysurfr]

politics suck so do all the presidential candidates. i cant vote but still from watching the debates they all suck they dont even care about us surfers so how about a surfer run for president then ill vote for you. but none of the presidents or vps dont care about us and dont really care about us.

What? you lost me bro. reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR75L08SBHo&feature=related

[Zansurf]

Very true Micah but my point was that the President (by nature of signing spending bills) DOES have an impact on pork barrel spending.

You have to understand the concept of precedent and the role of checks and balances. Basically McCain's threat to veto all bills with pork in them is downright naive. First of all Micah is correct in the ability of congress to override a veto with 2/3 majority. Not only that but McCain has to please congress in some sense if he ever wants his own legislation passed. Third and finally pork is the precedent that has been set for getting federal funding to most state programs. McCain can veto all he wants but he will pretty much spend four years getting nothing done for himself.

p.s. Obama did some surfing when he was in Hawaii from what i understand.

[wavehunter]

Interesting thread. All I know is that whether you like it or not, Obama will probably be the next president. I've been following this website where you can place bets on who you think will win the election for about the last 12 years and it hasn't been wrong yet and has Obama with a SIIICK lead. http://www.intrade.com/ Anyway, that is money speaking right there and money talks louder than opinions. Alot louder.

[aka pumpmaster]

You have to understand the concept of precedent and the role of checks and balances. Basically McCain's threat to veto all bills with pork in them is downright naive. First of all Micah is correct in the ability of congress to override a veto with 2/3 majority. Not only that but McCain has to please congress in some sense if he ever wants his own legislation passed. Third and finally pork is the precedent that has been set for getting federal funding to most state programs. McCain can veto all he wants but he will pretty much spend four years getting nothing done for himself.

p.s. Obama did some surfing when he was in Hawaii from what i understand.

wow. So because you think it a precedent and naive that pork barrel spending is to be accepted? So we just keep spending like mad and raising taxes to pay for it?

[Shadow Surfer]

Obama's a kook benny!

McCain is a robot! because of the injuries he spent in captivity. duh.

It's all about how each individual sees the world. If for one am not a socialist/marxist! I do not believe in taxing the rich corporations any more then they already are. Corporations don't pay tax increases, they just charge more for the goods and services they provide......therefore it's the consumer "middle class" who essentially takes this tax burden. Plus how are you gonna keep big corporations who provide thousands of jobs here in the U.S....they'll just leave for foreign soil where they'll get tax breaks for coming there to provide jobs!

what say you?

[njsurfer17]

there isnt even proof that obama is born in the us

[wbsurfer]

guys this is a surf forum not a presidential debate between surfers if you wanna talk politics got cnn.com or one of those political places. but keep these forums surf related.

[Zansurf]

wow. So because you think it a precedent and naive that pork barrel spending is to be accepted? So we just keep spending like mad and raising taxes to pay for it?

I don't think you should accept anything im just tellin you how it works, and that i doubt McCain, despite all his idealist talking can fix something with simply vetoing every bill that he sees.

[GnarActually]

obama is all about change...what change? he never really tells us what kind of changes. can't changed be bad? spreading the wealth around won't give any incentive for people to try to become more wealthy. well what i mean is that people below $40,000 are better off than people that make 50,000, so why would they want to work harder and try to do something in their life if they get everything for free. you gotta work for what you want, you cant just have the american dream handed to you.
mccain is a ****ty presidential canidate, but hes better than obama. and i think plain might do some good.obama has no idea what hes even talking about, he just says what people want him to say.
what ever man i can't even vote.
let's just surf

[quiksilver1231]

uhh whoever fixes all this ****... then i dont care and ill just go surf anyway

[scotty]

while you guys were "debating" i just got in a nice longboard sesh at 48th st. clean knee high walls. Its all good now!:D

[Shakagrom]

no, this is an open forum and we have talked about surfing so if you don't like it then don't read it.

Kelly Slater, the best surfer (and possibly the best athlete) to ever live is voting McCain. Need I say more??

It's a proven fact, if Obama tried to get a job with the CIA, FBI or even as a civilian within the federal government, he would be denied because of his links with the people he has surorunded himself by. As someone with a secret level security clearance, I must say, this is the biggest red flag of them all!

wow you seem kind of star struck! Just because he's a celebrity doesn't mean that his opinion is God! Remember, he is a human being after all. Stand up for you own opinion please...

btw to all of you who are poo-pooing this thread, i think its awesome!! Its great to see such heated debates!

[wbsurfer]

oaky listen guys this is a surf forum not a debate hall. also why waste all your time talking politics when we all have better stuff to do than talking about politic s-t. finally if you want politics turn your tv channel to cnnor msnbc those are the politic places not a surf foirum. also all of you need to get a f-in life if you do politics. and just vote for who you want not what celebrities are voting for.

[...LostInFlorida]

oaky listen guys this is a surf forum not a debate hall. also why waste all your time talking politics when we all have better stuff to do than talking about politic s-t. finally if you want politics turn your tv channel to cnnor msnbc those are the politic places not a surf foirum. also all of you need to get a f-in life if you do politics. and just vote for who you want not what celebrities are voting for.

are you even old enough to vote???
i voted for Ralph Nadar... that way, whoever gets elected, if they screw up, no one can blame me!

[wbsurfer]

are you even old enough to vote???
i voted for Ralph Nadar... that way, whoever gets elected, if they screw up, no one can blame me!

yes i am old enough to vote. NOT. and besides with all this economy crap thats going on who would wanna be president thats to much pressure.

[scotty]

are you even old enough to vote???
i voted for Ralph Nadar... that way, whoever gets elected, if they screw up, no one can blame me!

Not true...if McClown wins by 2% and Nader got 4% of the vote, believe me the democrats will once again blame Nader voters for skimming off the liberal vote. It happened with Gore in 2000.

By the way, pretty cool that you guys get to vote early...we've got swell, work, and votes to deal with tuesday.

Love Pensacola pier also by the way..scored some sick lefts there few years ago.

[old_boy]

Dear Friends...
Wow, there are plenty of good reasons not to vote for Obama but I don't think you named a single good one despite rambling on incoherently for more than my entire computer screen. You bring shame to yourself and to the Republican party with this nonsense.

[scotty]

Wow, there are plenty of good reasons not to vote for Obama but I don't think you named a single good one despite rambling on incoherently for more than my entire computer screen. You bring shame to yourself and to the Republican party with this nonsense.

Agree. Hopefuly nobody really takes that original post seriously.

[...LostInFlorida]

Not true...if McClown wins by 2% and Nader got 4% of the vote, believe me the democrats will once again blame Nader voters for skimming off the liberal vote. It happened with Gore in 2000.

By the way, pretty cool that you guys get to vote early...we've got swell, work, and votes to deal with tuesday.

Love Pensacola pier also by the way..scored some sick lefts there few years ago.

good deal... winter time is almost here.... that left off the pier will start working it's magic soon!

[LateTakeOff]

You've worked extremely hard to pay your dues - surfing. You now have the strength, stamina and confidence to paddle out through thick overhead beachbreak barrels and score 25 - 30 waves in a three hour session. But you're getting way more than your share! While you're scoring a wave every six minutes, some other surfers who are not as strong or fit are having to wait 30 minutes or more between waves. Gee, wouldn't it be better for all if we spread the wealth/waves and awarded 20 of your hard-earned waves to your fellow surfers? Wouldn't that make it a better world? :confused:

[blue crush]

bottom lines isssssss............

VOTE MCCAINNNNNNNNN
DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH h

[jak assateague]

McCain, for one simple reason....

DIVIDED GOVERNMENT

GRIDLOCK RULES, GRIDLOCK MEANS THESE ***HOLES STAY THE EFF OUT OF MY LIFE!!!

(that, plus Obammie's a friggin' terrorist...)

[jak assateague]

You've worked extremely hard to pay your dues - surfing. You now have the strength, stamina and confidence to paddle out through thick overhead beachbreak barrels and score 25 - 30 waves in a three hour session. But you're getting way more than your share! While you're scoring a wave every six minutes, some other surfers who are not as strong or fit are having to wait 30 minutes or more between waves. Gee, wouldn't it be better for all if we spread the wealth/waves and awarded 20 of your hard-earned waves to your fellow surfers? Wouldn't that make it a better world? :confused:

Isn't that what Tom Morey was thinking????:cool:
EARNING waves is SO overrated.....

[jrobe057]

I'm not sure you really know what that means. Karl Marx also wanted to spread the wealth around. There is a reason socialism doesn't work.

P.S. and don't try to tell me that it's not socialism, like every other lib out there. If you don't think he is socialist, than you my friend, don't live in reality.

Have you ever read any Marx or did you hear that on TV?

[Shakagrom]

(that, plus Obammie's a friggin' terrorist...)

wow
wait seriously?

that was pretty stupid

[Db2k5]

Have you ever read any Marx or did you hear that on TV?

No, I heard it on the radio, then I actually read the communist manifesto, and who woulda thunk it, they were right!. Have you?

"To each according to his needs, from each according to his needs"

Please don't try to talk down to me either. Just because your a meatball and you don't get it, doesn't mean you need to speak with a condescending tone.

[Barells]

do u think Bill Clinton was a socialist?

Obama wants to restore the tax brackets back to where they were with Clinton.

This is not a revolutionary idea or anything, rather an effort to restore tax and economic status to when the economy was doing very well.

if you are a middle class republican, how do you see this as being bad for you?

[Db2k5]

do u think Bill Clinton was a socialist?

Obama wants to restore the tax brackets back to where they were with Clinton.

This is not a revolutionary idea or anything, rather an effort to restore tax and economic status to when the economy was doing very well.

if you are a middle class republican, how do you see this as being bad for you?

Good question.

I was 5 when clinton went into office, so I really don't remember what he did, but I have done my homework.

He isn't exactly doing what Clinton did. True Clinton did cut taxes for low income families. He also cut them on small businesses, which Obama wants raise. Including a higher Income, and capital gains tax. Clinton raised tax on the highest 1.2% of taxpayers. Obama wants to go 5% paying 40% of taxes. Under the Obama plan, there are going to be something like 45% of Americans, won't pay taxes, period (forgive me for not having the exact percentage on that, can't remember it off hand).

He also implemented spending restraints over several years. Obama has proposed billions, and billions of new spending. I have heard trillions, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

That being said, in all actuality, if you step back and look at what Obama is doing, he is bribing you to vote for him. He is smart, he is ridiculously smart, that is a great strategy.

Sooo, in turn this is how it affects me AND YOU.

This is a consumer driven market, by taking money out of the pockets of the rich folk, it in turns mean less money is going into the market. Most middle class families, work in industries that depends on a good economy, excluding medical fields and law enforcements. Since the economy is already in the toilet, by taking more money out of consumer markets, it means jobs will be lost. Which means, a worse economy. Clinton created 22.7 million jobs. He didn't try to re-distribute wealth, he created it.

That being said, this is how it affects me. I will be graduating with a degree in Architectural Engineering in the spring. I am working on my AKBD (associate kitchen and bath designer) as well. I work for a high end custom Millwork company as a designer. Most of our clients are in the wheelhouse Obama is targeting to tax the crap out of. Those clients not coming in and spending money, equals no job for me. The construction industry is already hurting terribly, these new taxes on businesses and high end clients is going to put the industry into a bigger recession.

Socially, I didn't like Clinton, but it is really hard to argue that he did some good things fiscally. Obama on the other hand, is not like Clinton, and is going to put the country into a deeper whole, and in all honesty, I hope to God I am wrong, but I don't think I am. Okay, now that my long winded thesis is done, time to go wash the truck. Thanks.

[blue crush]

wow
wait seriously?

that was pretty stupid

noo not really.

[BeachCruiser01]

Rather interesting that the Clinton years are touted as being great when Obama is proposing the tax on small business go back to the Clinton rate.
The entire economy is built on revolvoing debt, from top down and bottom up. If the lower classes don't have jobs or jobs that pay well enough, it doesnt matter if mr. rich guy wants to hire/make something if the poor masses can't afford to buy it.

[STASI]

This country has gone too far right, in my opinion, so a lefty should center stuff out. Obama 08.

[GnarActually]

dude your way off man

[jak assateague]

This country has gone too far right, in my opinion, so a lefty should center stuff out. Obama 08.

There's some BRILLIANT "logic"...:p:p:p

[Shakagrom]

noo not really.

o wait let me think again...

yep it still is effed up that you think a man running for friggin president of the United States of America would be Anti-American and a terrorist.

A great man once said "The unexamined life is not worth living." So examine that quote that "Obama is a terrorist" and tell me straight up that that bullcrap is not a ****ing joke.

[mtd]

A great man once said "The unexamined life is not worth living.".

Well, I say "an unlived life is not worth examining", so bring a swell and lets get on it!

PS - just got back from a wonderful late-season inland sesh in Western MD on the Potomac and I'm stoked, so lets get this election over with and get back to surfing and arguing over fun stuff like surfing vs bodyboarding (apologies to KB4L, not to leave you out... jk...):)

PPS - "Follow your bliss" - Joseph Campbell

[jrobe057]

No, I heard it on the radio, then I actually read the communist manifesto, and who woulda thunk it, they were right!. Have you?

"To each according to his needs, from each according to his needs"

Please don't try to talk down to me either. Just because your a meatball and you don't get it, doesn't mean you need to speak with a condescending tone.

Where did you get your idea that socialism won't work? You read the "Communist Manifesto" and know well about what Marx said about advanced capitalism. I hope you don't think that Russia or China are worthy examples to what Marx said that socialism would be. For one capitalism had to progress until it imploded and this can't happen in a feudal or agrarian country like Russia or China were at the time of their adoption of "socialism, and Marx also would have disdained their dictatorships and totalitarianism.

McCain likes the bailout too, is he a Marxist? That is redistribution of wealth only it will be going to the banks. That is like socialism for rich people. The "Communist Manifesto" is about 30 pages out of thousands that Marx has written. Respectively, read a little more.

[JerseySurfRat89]

Ron Paul is the man

[sosodel]

Ron Paul is the man

Hells yea Ron Paul for prez and Jack Beauchanan for vice.. Winning duo right there

[wizes7]

wow dude way to examine both candidates in a fair and open minded way. you can find equally as much **** on john mccain if you wanted to... personal opinions are bound to change over time as people become more informed and inspired.... its not flip-flopping, its acquiring knowledge. everyone has beliefs that change over time, ive redifined my values as i have gained a better understanding of my personal convictions and hopefully you have also. you give insight to baracks early life and inspiration when he was young and say nothing about the man he has become. i get the feeling that you are basically saying that people should stick to their original convictions even if their is a logical reason to change, which by the why is the reason were still in iraq and economy in the ****ter, because we have a president who is unwilling to reflect on a situation and reshape his ideas to accomandate new needs. the truth is people need to be as informed as possible. we have people comparing obama to marx becames he wants to "spread the wealth around" which is a phrase they probably heard in the news and have absolutely no idea what socialism really is. db2k5 and others who think obama is this socialist leader why dont you try reading up on socialist doctrines like the communist manifesto or something. check the 10 planks and tell me if obama is a truely a socialist. and i know communism is the same as socialism but communism is a form of socialism and the communist manifest was also written by karl marx. anyway this really wasnt supposed to turn into a obama lovefest i only wanted to try and give a little bit of truth to some of the claims but honestly what i really wanted to say is that all voters need carefully align themselves with the candidate that truely represents their opions which every party they happen to be in and inorder to do this it would be helpful to get a real nonbasis breakdown of the candidates. check out this website for some real facts, no opinions, no preferences, just a quick break down of the the canidates stances on the issues. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7436221.stm .....this website will take about 5 minutes to read its real short and compares in a couple of sentences the two canidates stances on some key issues like iraq, the economy, taxes, health insurance, education, etc.... voting is a personal responibility that way way way way too many people take forgrated by just listening to public babble instead of actually doing some real research ive heard so many ignorant opinions on both sides its retarted.

[SeasideSwell]

Obama, is a socialist... and it wont be too long before he takes away our guns, and our free speech... I'm scared... and i wanna surf

[kelly slater]

this just in.... Obama has an aunt living in boston illegally..... if the liberals/press would have researched this guys background 1/10 the amount they did on "joe The Plumber" he would not be the nominee and probably would be sitting in Guantanamo with the rest of his cronies...

ks

[South Bethany]

check out this website for some real facts, no opinions, no preferences, just a quick break down of the the canidates stances on the issues. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7436221.stm .....

Thanks. That WAS a concise summary. Off topic here, ironic that you have to rely on foreign news source to a simple issue summary that you arent completely skeptical about. Fox News, CNN, etc. come so much baggage.

[Db2k5]

Where did you get your idea that socialism won't work? You read the "Communist Manifesto" and know well about what Marx said about advanced capitalism. I hope you don't think that Russia or China are worthy examples to what Marx said that socialism would be. For one capitalism had to progress until it imploded and this can't happen in a feudal or agrarian country like Russia or China were at the time of their adoption of "socialism, and Marx also would have disdained their dictatorships and totalitarianism.

McCain likes the bailout too, is he a Marxist? That is redistribution of wealth only it will be going to the banks. That is like socialism for rich people. The "Communist Manifesto" is about 30 pages out of thousands that Marx has written. Respectively, read a little more.

Socialism is a traditionalism phase into communism. So, China and Russia were very worth examples.

[Barells]

That being said, this is how it affects me. I will be graduating with a degree in Architectural Engineering in the spring. I am working on my AKBD (associate kitchen and bath designer) as well. I work for a high end custom Millwork company as a designer. Most of our clients are in the wheelhouse Obama is targeting to tax the crap out of. Those clients not coming in and spending money, equals no job for me. The construction industry is already hurting terribly, these new taxes on businesses and high end clients is going to put the industry into a bigger recession.


i can understand how economically, you personally would go to McCain, since your job caters to the upper class. The upper class, however, as a major minority population, does not consume most consumer products. So, most are not dependent in this way.

[Zansurf]

Socialism is a traditionalism phase into communism. So, China and Russia were very worth examples.

Your right about the first part, but the authoritarian governments of those countries do not follow with the true nature of a transformation into communism. The government would be formed by the lower class not by military, or single authoritarian rulers. Like i explained like six pages or so ago, communism comes about when the working class realizes it's control over capitalist markets, through it's role as the production of goods. When the working class rises to rebel against the powers of the bourgeoisie, the majority of the population will take control over the means of production along with the government institutions that backed the upper class. This creates a small strong centralized government of proletariat workers who evenly distribute the yields of production. Eventually the need for government becomes arbitrary and ownership of property is autonomous. This is the eventual form of government we would maintain until the end of time. Had this taken place in any former socialist countries, you would have seen a swift decrease in poverty, but instead you saw the socialist governments of eastern Europe collapse.

[MDSurfer]

What a shame it is to hear that the people who really know how to run this country are all too busy surfing.

[aczaplicki]

Being a history major I have always had to debate whether or not the electoral college was a good thing. During this election I really understand why our founding fathers thought we were to stupid to do it alone. I go to a school that has mostly a minority population, and the most common answer i get when i ask them why they are voting for Obama i get "because he is black and we need a change". As for the black people that try and say they like his ideas, I brought up all of McCains views and acted like they were Obamas, and they didn't even know. That is sad that ignorant people like that can even vote. Before a black candidate was running these people didn't even know what a Democrat was, oh wait, they still don't.

[Barells]

Being a history major I have always had to debate whether or not the electoral college was a good thing. During this election I really understand why our founding fathers thought we were to stupid to do it alone. I go to a school that has mostly a minority population, and the most common answer i get when i ask them why they are voting for Obama i get "because he is black and we need a change". As for the black people that try and say they like his ideas, I brought up all of McCains views and acted like they were Obamas, and they didn't even know. That is sad that ignorant people like that can even vote. Before a black candidate was running these people didn't even know what a Democrat was, oh wait, they still don't.

It is a surprise to you that elections are popularity contests? Some popularity is based on the real issues, other popularity is based personality and superficiality. People want to vote for people that they can relate to.

Some people will vote for Obama just because he is black. Others will not vote for Obama, just because his is black. This is not a surprise.

[EastCoastBodyBoarder]

who cares just surf

[GnarActually]

It is a surprise to you that elections are popularity contests? Some popularity is based on the real issues, other popularity is based personality and superficiality. People want to vote for people that they can relate to.

Some people will vote for Obama just because he is black. Others will not vote for Obama, just because his is black. This is not a surprise.

pretty much half the population that are voting for obama doesn't even no what he's standing for. hes black. he is a good speaker. he promises change. and says things that people want him to say. who wouldn't vote for someone that would make all your dreams come true? hes all fake. thats what i think. and this forum is getting kinda long.....lets talk about the upcoming swell instead. im just stoked that i get to use my new board this week!

[barryob]

After reading every post on this thread I couldn't help but chime in. First things first, I am disgusted to hear how rascist some of the people in the line up are. Next, much of the communist ideal came from the bible........read Acts 2:42-45 and Acts 4:32-37. Interesting how far modern Christianity has come from this original ideal........very self-serving.

Here's another one for those who would vote based on Kelly Slater's opinion. Is he actually Kelly Slater? My apologies if you are but I could have signed on as Obama himself if I wanted to.

Here's a shocker, as stated previously in multiple posts, Obama, Palin, and McCain support many socialist policies. Here's another example, Palin hasn't been very concerned about socialism given that she passes wealth directly from oil and gas companies to the people of the state of Alaska.

Now for the kicker. For those of you who think Obama's tax cuts will go directly to lazy people who don't want to work. I am not doing that great financially but through hard work I am getting along okay. Despite a recent foreclosure and bankruptcy things were once much harder. I was the recipient of food stamps, federal student aid and paid no taxes. I worked 50 - 60 hours each week and attended College. I thanked whatever socialist commie that someone enacted the EITC because without it I wouldn't have been able to support my three person family. I have worked my way up to lower middle class and no longer qualify for any of these "horrible socialist wealth spreading programs".........to my dismay. Maybe if the government would have sunken that 700 billion into the working class I could have gotten a 20,000 grant or low interest loan to fix the mold infested house that was unsafe to move my now family of four into. Much thanks to Obama and McLame for that one.

Now I can only hope that this is another one of those times. You know...... when you had an idea you never developed only to find out someone else has decided to. BTW....That idea was infiltrate the system from the inside to bring about the fundamental changes necessary to change our antiquated system of government into a more sustainable and functional system. I hope for this because I truly believe our government and financial system are entirely corrupted. The only variable allowing it is the so-called majority that has been led to believe we live in the best of all possible worlds and it doesn't get any better.:cool:

[Spongah]

All of the folks posting who are delivering the standard rhetoric on "socialism" and "social programs" need to have:

A. A devastating illness or injury that wipes out your life savings

B. Become dependent upon Social Security Disabilty or Supplemental Security Insurance and Medicare or Medicaid, because said life savings were wiped out paying for your medical care

C. Need to decide between adding another board to your quiver or purchasing your prescriptions for the month

D. Or you need to do something other than play video games, masturbate yourself into a froth and go surfing, such as get a volunteer job in a nursing home, go to Haiti, work with the elderly, disabled and poor to get some empathy - something sorely lacking in this country

Chances are, your immature attitudes towards things like universal healthcare and social programs would turn around really quickly.

Until then, I suggest seeing a colorectal surgeon to pull your head out of your ass. And do the rest of the country a favor and stop running up your credit cards, pay your bills on time, and stop taking out mortgages and home equity loans to buy Hummers with your mini-salaries for McMansions. It's YOUR fault we needed a $700 billion bailout, not the poor, elderly and disabled.

PS - If you have 500 boards in your quiver, and you ride 5 of them - you're an idiot that needs to be shot and is part of the problem.

[Spongah]

Barryrob -

Don't even try to discuss socialism with anyone who throws the word around, because you know if anything catastrophic ever happened to them, they would be the first ones with their hands out, palms up. Suddenly it would be all about entitlement, and less about the evils of socialism. LOL.

I'm an RN, and I've seen it more times than I care to discuss. I am also a survivor of a major accident and have myasthenia gravis. I've seen it from both sides of the bedpan, so to speak.

Karma is a wonderful thing. It catches up to everyone eventually.

Chris

[aka pumpmaster]

Barry, You used the welfare program for the reasons they should be used...to help people attain a higher standard of living through hard work. As a conservative,I support welfare for that purpose but I also support personal responsibility over collect responsibility. The problem as we all know is the human nature dictates that a freebie is easier than hard work and unfortunately not everyone has the ethics that you do. The biggest problem I have with Obama are his lack of experience and his class warfare stances. I would feel much more at ease if he said something to the effect of 'let's find the money in the existing budget instead of automatically going to the 'soak the rich' position. Until we start living within our means as a country we are never going to get out of the mess we are in (and please don't lay all the blame on Bush, he had a hand in for sure but Dems are just as guilty).

[yankee]

1. The people who should be running for elective office, aren't. They want no part of the media inquisition into their past, their families, their friendships, the crazy crap that they did (that we ALL did) when they were in their 20's....

2. Thus, we're "led" by professional politicans & lawyers, the high majority of whom are in the top 1% of wealth in this nation.

3. Thus, there is no relationship between the working-class electorate & the wealthy elected. Although the pols will make you think that there is (witness the Joe the Plumber BS) through spin & deep BS.

Both these guys are professional pols. They both have flaws.

If Obama is elected, our rep as a nation will slowly heal & improve. He won't be able to get everything he wants, just as with any sitting president, due to the provincial clowns in Congress who have their own agendas & who always jam the president up on his agenda.

If McSame gets elected, we go on with 2 wars at huge taxpayer expense. We go on with tax breaks for the wealthy. We go another 4 yrs of W mode.

I've just had enough of W, and thus McSame by extension. One man's opinion.

Not a rabid Obama man, it just burns me up to see how America has stumbled & fallen on our arse in terms of our power in the world. I travel a lot & I see the repercussions of W everywhere - - he is despised in some places, a joke in others & generally considered a terrible representative of the great American people.

Anyways, some of the posts here have been intriguing & very interesting, so thanks to those who took the time to post intelligent stuff, I enjoyed reading all views from all angles.

[aka pumpmaster]

It's funny Yankee that you bring up intelligent posting but yet you call McCain silly names.......

[wallysurfr]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/999596/

some intelligent Osama supporters

[Zansurf]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/999596/

some intelligent Osama supporters

You should not have tried to argue that dude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QhJJBfwJME&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODaxZSz3Awg

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=168561&title=indecision-2008-west-virginia

You can find just as many dumb white people as you can dumb black people. Stupidity transcends race, gender, age, and apparently has infected the swellinfo forums.

[wallysurfr]

Zansurf? Why is it a black and white thing?

[Zansurf]

Zansurf? Why is it a black and white thing?

Dude the entire Howard Stern radio piece was on Black people in Harlem voting for Obama because hes black. My examples followed suit with the corresponding demographic on the other side of the debate. Uneducated white people who supported McCain based solely on the fact of race. I would go as far to say that the Black people were far nicer in their opinions, at least trying to maintain some sort of policy base for their support, whereas McCain supporters openly cited their unfounded fears of race, religion, and name association for their basis of decision. You seem to appeal to these fears in your very first post with the mention of his middle name and religion of his biological parents. This is my only problem with the attacks from McCain and his supporters. You choose to scare people out of making an informed decision, and instead make a decision based on arbitrary biographical information. This type of disenfranchisement goes against the most basic of America's values, the freedom to choose.

[JMD]

They both truly suck tatters.

Ron Paul would have my vote but he is to much for the constatution so he would not fit in the sceem of things.

I had a whole long winded speech wrote out but I deleted it. This whole thing really is not worth my time specially on a surfing forum. The whole two party system of Repub and Dem disgusts me and how far they have the country divided is even worse. No fret I am one of the drones and am still voting with the system so the evil I pick is Obama not because I want to but because who else is there?

[Zansurf]

They both truly suck tatters.

Ron Paul would have my vote but he is to much for the constatution so he would not fit in the sceem of things.

I had a whole long winded speech wrote out but I deleted it. This whole thing really is not worth my time specially on a surfing forum. The whole two party system of Repub and Dem disgusts me and how far they have the country divided is even worse. No fret I am one of the drones and am still voting with the system so the evil I pick is Obama not because I want to but because who else is there?

Wow despite the use of the word tatters and your lack of writing skills i completely agree with this entirely. We definitely allow these two organizations run our country, and i know why. For one it prevents any real competition of ideas, allowing one side to merely discredit and stereotype the ideas of the other. The reason they do this is because it's easier to prove some one else is wrong then to come up with good policies that might actually fix things. In this system it's not necessary to be right, as long as you can prove that the other guy is wrong. I too, am a former Ron Paul fan that must choose a second, sub-par candidate.

[JMD]

Wow despite the use of the word tatters and your lack of writing skills i completely agree with this entirely. We definitely allow these two organizations run our country, and i know why. For one it prevents any real competition of ideas, allowing one side to merely discredit and stereotype the ideas of the other. The reason they do this is because it's easier to prove some one else is wrong then to come up with good policies that might actually fix things. In this system it's not necessary to be right, as long as you can prove that the other guy is wrong. I too, am a former Ron Paul fan that must choose a second, sub-par candidate.


Hey! Back when, when I first started going to collage, my english/writing skills were marked above average on the entrances tests. I even got to skip the essay portions.

Anyway, I kind of slack off and dumb down on message boards. Sorry. At least you got the gist of my crap. :D

[wallysurfr]

I urge everyone who reads this thread to vote McCain! I will be voting for McCain first thing on Tuesday morning.

Oh so you are voting McCain?

[Zansurf]

Wow, that is genius you can make it look like i said something i didn't that's awesome, yet you still have no intelligent rebuttal. I'll give you one more shot, to say something that makes sense. :pbama 08'

[JMD]

I'll give you one more shot, to say something that makes sense. :pbama 08'

You won't get it.

[JMD]

Your right about the first part, but the authoritarian governments of those countries do not follow with the true nature of a transformation into communism. The government would be formed by the lower class not by military, or single authoritarian rulers. Like i explained like six pages or so ago, communism comes about when the working class realizes it's control over capitalist markets, through it's role as the production of goods. When the working class rises to rebel against the powers of the bourgeoisie, the majority of the population will take control over the means of production along with the government institutions that backed the upper class. This creates a small strong centralized government of proletariat workers who evenly distribute the yields of production. Eventually the need for government becomes arbitrary and ownership of property is autonomous. This is the eventual form of government we would maintain until the end of time. Had this taken place in any former socialist countries, you would have seen a swift decrease in poverty, but instead you saw the socialist governments of eastern Europe collapse.


I have not really went back and read most of the crap in this thread because it would probably just piss me off. I must say great post and you obviously know your history.

[rodndtube]

incorrect. if a bill is vetoed by the president, it gets sent back to congress, who can overturn the veto with a two thirds vote:

http://www.votesmart.org/resource_govt101_02.php

Correct, but incompletely correct. There is also the case where a bill passed and sent to the president that becomes law in 10 days even if the president does not sign it (subject to the congress not adjourning within 10 days).

[wallysurfr]

Wow, that is genius you can make it look like i said something i didn't that's awesome, yet you still have no intelligent rebuttal. I'll give you one more shot, to say something that makes sense. :pbama 08'


haha, you must admit the joke was pretty funny. I second JMD. We've already tried to break it down for you with easy analogies etc. but no one cares. That's the thing about politics, you have your stance and it is almost impossible to get anyone to switch. It really all comes back to pride.

I watch the market all day long and I would say that I know quite a bit about the economy. I know that if Obama does what he says he wants to do, we are in for very difficult times ahead. I'm not saying that when McCain gets into office he will fix everything but right now is not time to raise taxes on anyone.

McCain is heading in the right direction by giving tax cuts to large corporations. Think about it, the corporations getting the tax cut hire more people who pay income taxes into the system. The products of their goods or services don't go up and they don't more their production facility oversees!

Obama will raise taxes and instead of doing what Clinton did and pay down the deficit he will give your hard earned money to people who don't "feel" like working and fund the billions or trillion dollars worth of programs he plans.

It all comes down to one thing. This country was not founded on those principals! Have you ever read the constitution? Obama does not believe the constitution should be upheld! If you work hard and put the time in, then your hard work will pay off. Why should we work hard so that someone who is alright with taking handouts sits home and watches Maury Povich all day and has no intention on ever making a living for himself? Why would they? The government will take care of them through our tax dollars!

[rodndtube]

People are upperclass because they went out and became that way. They didn't party thier way through high school and flunk out of college. Liberals are quick to want everything to be fair. Guess what, life isn't fair GET OVER IT. Grow up, you sound like a 4 year old. Remember, we are given life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, we aren't garunteed happiness. We are garunteed that we are able to go out and get whatever we want. Nothing in this world is free, and you IGNORANT liberals asking for a handout all the time and wanting things to be fair sounds like a 13 year old girl. Just because you work a **** job, and are lazy doesn't mean that people should have to give you money because you can't get out of your own way. On one hand, people ***** about government spending, then they want the government to give them free everything, healthcare, schooling, food, daycare, the next thing you know, you idiots are going to be asking for a damn car. Grow up.

To the rational people out there, who aren't total MEATBALLS, sorry for my rant.

It isn't quite so cut and dry. Being lower class or upper class does not necessarily correlate with ambition, effort and reward - opportunity for people from the lower echelons of society have many hurdles to overcome in order to significantly improve their "class status" but it is not impossible and there is a lot more opportunity in the USA to improve one's status then in other nations. On the other hand there are ample examples of the wealthly classes sustaining their entitlements through no special efforts of their own, but simply living off the wealth created by prior generations, and many laws have been written to support this opportunity. This nation's (USA) middle class has every opportunity to sustain its place, lose it or improve upon it although it has become more of a challenge during the past decade.

To the poster: Do you live "on the grid" or "off the grid?" If you are on the grid then maybe refrain from pointing fingers at others.

[rodndtube]

[QUOTE=jbird;21697]

You don't get it. If we pull out now, we will have to go right back over there in another 10 years. Remember desert storm? There is a reason we are back in iraq.

Do you remember the history of the Middle East? Indochina? The Balkans? The Crusades? Ten years is a mere snapshot in history.

[rodndtube]

It's pretty obvious that everything started becoming over inflated during the Clinton administration, the same president who lifted the regulations on the banks and FORCED the banks to lend to people who CAN"T afford a house. That is what caused the environment for this type of CORRECTION (not crisis).


It really is not so obvious. Inflation was rather bad during the Carter administration due to the emergence of a strong oil cartel. Before that we had wage & price controls for around 3 years under the Nixon administration after which inflation bounced upward to heights nearly as high as the Carter/oil inflation ceiling. Also, equating the hi-tech bubble with the housing bubble is akin to comparing apples and oranges due to the breadth and depth of those markets and the degree of people's (and institutional) wealth that it represents.

Moreover, the statement on bank regulations and loans is simply incorrect and the pools of loans made to people from the lower-middle class group was a very small proportion of the riskly subprime loans made and remade into highly risky repackaged instruments, also known as pyramid schemes.

[rodndtube]

The reason "Mr. Roboto" moves his arms that way is because they have been broken multiple times while being tortured when he was a prisoner of war, defending this country, our rights and our freedoms. So we can go surfing whenever we want on a $600 piece of foam without even thinking twice about it.

It is a bit of a stretch to say the Vietnam War was a war defending our country, rights and freedoms... and our ability to buy a $600 piece of foam. Ditto the domino theory used as a key argument for this war - the Vietnamese Nationalists won the war but the nearby countries did not become communist. To the contrary, that region of the world collectively has thrived.

Hey, I don't wish ill upon anyone, but you are also talking about the greatness and heroics of a man who lost 4 airplanes and is a gambler by nature. He rolled the dice and took a chance. I'd rather not see him roll the dice and risk our entire nation.

[rodndtube]

no, this is an open forum and we have talked about surfing so if you don't like it then don't read it.

Kelly Slater, the best surfer (and possibly the best athlete) to ever live is voting McCain. Need I say more??


Kelly Slater should spread his wealth and his abilities!!!

P.S. Best athlete to ever live? Well, yeah, you do sorta have to live to ever become an athlete! Still a bit of a stretch... but, he is very accomplished.

[rodndtube]

no, this is an open forum and we have talked about surfing so if you don't like it then don't read it.

It's a proven fact, if Obama tried to get a job with the CIA, FBI or even as a civilian within the federal government, he would be denied because of his links with the people he has surorunded himself by. As someone with a secret level security clearance, I must say, this is the biggest red flag of them all!

This is a bogus assertion. Hell, a large number of the neo-conservatives that served int he Bush administration were freaking lefties before they became NEO-cons. As an aside, someone with a national security clearance could lose it by going around and touting it and posting a big red flag, "target me."

[rodndtube]

I'm gonna revert back to my statement that it's hard to change something with so much precedent. The president has nothing to do with pork barrel spending.

The president has a lot of influence over pork barrel spending. The power of the veto is very powerful. It is also standard course in politics for the president to negotiate with congress over pork and presidents certainly lard up the budgets sent to congress.

[rodndtube]

[QUOTE=Db2k5;21701]
Remember Viet Nam. I don't care how long we stay there, as soon as we leave it will revert back to chaos until another dictator or religious zealot takes over. That's the way it has been for thousand of years and we will never change that ideology.

Sadam Hussein was an ugly person. But it is rather amazing that under Sadam's regime that women had more freedom, there were more religious freedoms, and that you could buy a decent Iraqi-produced beer. Not to mention that Al-Qaeda was a threat to a secular, Baathist regime. It remains to be seen to what extent Iraq moves away from being a secular nation to a theocracy.

[rodndtube]

Actually its more like this:

"The hate for the country has no party lines....it is all based on the jealousy of our freedoms and rights and our wealth...including our freedoms and rights to vote for whomever we want."

Especially in the muslim countries. Do some research on womens rights and the husband/wife dynamic in muslim areas. Muslim men are terrified of womens rights since that totally undermines their authority. So the preach hatred for the west (of which the US is the leader) as a way to keep those ideas from springing up.

The USA is widely admired throughout the world. Most countries and peoples wish to emulate our form of government and freedom. In speaking of "our culture wars" however, it is interesting to note that a lot has changed in the USA during the past 40 to 60 years... it wasn't so long ago that women and minorities lacked many, many freedoms. But, we as a people have always had hope because of our great public statements of policy in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution and its Amendments, and the Emancipation Proclamation.

[rodndtube]

[QUOTE=aka pumpmaster;21712]

Review your history bright one. Name one "confilict" the U.S. has gotten into in the last 40years that has resulted in anything changing? What makes Iraq so damn critical that we should spent one more day there? Oil?

For better or worse there are several examples in this hemisphere: Dominican Republic, Grenada, El Salvador, and Nicaragua. Maybe Panamá.

[rodndtube]

[QUOTE=jbird;21697]

Hahahahahahaha yes i know establishing a Democracy and removing a dictator is such a terrible thing. Training 400,000 of their own soldiers in order to create a stable government. If we don't finish the job (Obama), Iran might take over and all the work of our soldiers would be worth nothing.

Establishing "democracy" in other nations has not always worked out the way we wanted... one only need to review 20 years of history from Northern Africa through Southeast Asia. This is great irony of the activist, internationalist neo-conservatism movement.

[rodndtube]

politics suck so do all the presidential candidates. i cant vote but still from watching the debates they all suck they dont even care about us surfers so how about a surfer run for president then ill vote for you. but none of the presidents or vps dont care about us and dont really care about us.

Obama has bodysurfed Sandy's. That counts for something towards being a wave rider. I'd attempt some tandem riding with Sarah ;) McCain might just stick to SUP boarding. I don't want to picture Biden bodyboarding Dumps.

[Zansurf]

The president has a lot of influence over pork barrel spending. The power of the veto is very powerful. It is also standard course in politics for the president to negotiate with congress over pork and presidents certainly lard up the budgets sent to congress.

Yea i know, i was generalizing because people think McCain's threats to veto every piece of legislation that has pork in it shows some kind of bravado. I just wanted to point out that this claim is not based in rational thought because of checks and balances, and how important pork has become in getting money to the states. You actually added to my argument because yes the president can add his/her own pork.

[rodndtube]

wow. So because you think it a precedent and naive that pork barrel spending is to be accepted? So we just keep spending like mad and raising taxes to pay for it?

Pork can be whatever you interpret it to be. What is pork to you might be beef to me, or chickenfeed or manure. Earmarks that slip into bills late in the process is politics, for better or worse, and you will probably like or dislike any specific earmark depending on any given day. Nonetheless, these earmarks are generally a very small portion of the overall budget. Should these earmarks be subject to full transparency and debate. Probably. However, signing up to a Pay-Go policy for all bills would be much more effective as demonstrated during the last 10 years or so of the last century. Pay-Go fell apart early in the Bush administration when increasing the debt became a "good thing to do." Sorry to digress, but I would like to see the federal budget broken into operating and capital accounts and to limit borrowing to capital investments.

[rodndtube]

there isnt even proof that obama is born in the us

Please define what you mean by born in the us. Do you mean in a state of the USA?

[rodndtube]

You've worked extremely hard to pay your dues - surfing. You now have the strength, stamina and confidence to paddle out through thick overhead beachbreak barrels and score 25 - 30 waves in a three hour session. But you're getting way more than your share! While you're scoring a wave every six minutes, some other surfers who are not as strong or fit are having to wait 30 minutes or more between waves. Gee, wouldn't it be better for all if we spread the wealth/waves and awarded 20 of your hard-earned waves to your fellow surfers? Wouldn't that make it a better world? :confused:

No!!! I am a full-on free market wave capitalist. I do NOT want to spread the wealth in the waves!!!

[rodndtube]

<snip> I thanked whatever socialist commie that someone enacted the EITC because without it I wouldn't have been able to support my three person family.
For what it is worth, this "socialist program" was signed into law in 1975 (Ford administration), the initially modest EIC has been expanded by tax legislation on a number of occasions, including the more widely-publicized Reagan EIC expansion of 1986. Models socialists these two!

[rodndtube]

Barryrob -

Don't even try to discuss socialism with anyone who throws the word around, because you know if anything catastrophic ever happened to them, they would be the first ones with their hands out, palms up. Suddenly it would be all about entitlement, and less about the evils of socialism. LOL.

I'm an RN, and I've seen it more times than I care to discuss. I am also a survivor of a major accident and have myasthenia gravis. I've seen it from both sides of the bedpan, so to speak.

Karma is a wonderful thing. It catches up to everyone eventually.

Chris

One of my good friends is a vociferous neo-con/libertarian (he kinda goes back and forth between the two). He was fiercely anti-immigration and wanted to throw all the illegal immigrants out.... until he built his new house.

[Shakagrom]

Rob Machado for President!! And Donavon Frankenreiter can be his VP. They would be an unstoppable duo... every campaign event would be stylish with some awesome music.:D

And I think they would have a pretty good shot at beating Palin if she were to run in the near future!

Just a thought.

[GnarActually]

biden scares me....

[Shakagrom]

biden scares me....

and sarah palin doesn't??????????????:confused::confused::confused ::confused::confused::confused:


if palin were to ever become president i think i would move to british colombia!!!!!!!

[GnarActually]

no i mean hes a creepy man

[Shakagrom]

yea but at least hes got a half-decent brain!

[Xtreme*Liquidshredda]

make this into a simple question? Who would bang Sarah Palin? C'mon...

[rodndtube]

Rob Machado for President!! And Donavon Frankenreiter can be his VP. They would be an unstoppable duo... every campaign event would be stylish with some awesome music.:D

And I think they would have a pretty good shot at beating Palin if she were to run in the near future!

Just a thought.

George Greenough for President (experience!) and Sofia Mulanovich for VP. Hands down, what a hot team.

[Db2k5]

yea but at least hes got a half-decent brain!

Lol, come on dude. She is probably smarter than you'll ever been. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Shakagrom]

Lol, come on dude. She is probably smarter than you'll ever been. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

nah thats not true

[steelwave42]

[QUOTE=rodndtube;21970]It is a bit of a stretch to say the Vietnam War was a war defending our country, rights and freedoms... and our ability to buy a $600 piece of foam. Ditto the domino theory used as a key argument for this war - the Vietnamese Nationalists won the war but the nearby countries did not become communist. To the contrary, that region of the world collectively has thrived.

Very true, and a bit of a stretch is right. Had nothing to do with US. My father fought in that war and would agree with you completely. This thing we're involved with now is starting to look like the reflection...

[blue crush]

and sarah palin doesn't??????????????:confused::confused::confused ::confused::confused::confused:


if palin were to ever become president i think i would move to british colombia!!!!!!!

if obama messes things up which he prob will if hes elected; then ill move to australia.

[Db2k5]

nah thats not true

Why is she running for Vice President and your posting on a surfing message board. Loser.

[wbsurfer]

if obama messes things up which he prob will if hes elected; then ill move to australia.

okay sometimes african americans can help this country. and i want all of you guys and girls to stop being racist to our other race, cause its not nice and just low on the totem poll. finally this country is a all equall country it doesnt matter if one person is richer than the other. Just follow the golden rule "TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED."

[Shakagrom]

Why is she running for Vice President and your posting on a surfing message board. Loser.

because im not even in college yet
so maybe i will run for vp in 25-30 years

[Shakagrom]

if obama messes things up which he prob will if hes elected; then ill move to australia.

I was being serious though.

[wallysurfr]

This is a bogus assertion. Hell, a large number of the neo-conservatives that served int he Bush administration were freaking lefties before they became NEO-cons. As an aside, someone with a national security clearance could lose it by going around and touting it and posting a big red flag, "target me."

No, sorry. You're way off! You are totally wrong and honestly I don't think you really know what you are writing in this thread. If Obama applied for a job as a civilian in the US Government, he would NOT pass the background check. His relationship with Ayers alone would rule him out. Not to mention the other sketchy relationships that he has had, rev. wright, tony resko, etc.

[rodndtube]

No, sorry. You're way off! You are totally wrong and honestly I don't think you really know what you are writing in this thread. If Obama applied for a job as a civilian in the US Government, he would NOT pass the background check. His relationship with Ayers alone would rule him out. Not to mention the other sketchy relationships that he has had, rev. wright, tony resko, etc.

Sorry. Not so. Character assassinations don't cut it in the real business of the US Government. Check the facts.

[aka pumpmaster]

Rod, you don't think his association with Ayers would hurt him on a background check for TS clearance?

[Shakagrom]

Why is she running for Vice President and your posting on a surfing message board. Loser.

shes running for VP because John McCain made a bad choice... not because she's a smart woman.

and p.s. she's not that hot

[Shakagrom]

Rod, you don't think his association with Ayers would hurt him on a background check for TS clearance?

his association with Ayers?:rolleyes: You mean the one where he served on the same educational board as him?

[aka pumpmaster]

There's a little more to it than that. Have you read his book?

[rodndtube]

Rod, you don't think his association with Ayers would hurt him on a background check for TS clearance?

No more than I can be called a right wing co-conspirator or sympathizer because I have regular associations with several good friends who are "right wing conservatives." Likewise, there are congressional representatives and senators that are polar opposites politically, ethically and in temperament that sit on the same committees and work on the same subcommittees but that does not make them "guilty by association."

During the course of a national security clearance investigation the nature of the alleged association with Ayers could very well be investigated. The degree of investigation would probably reflect the nature of the background investigation... there is a big difference between a general background investigation and a top level investigation. The most recent comment by "pumpmaster" elevates the level of rigor from another person's original assertion "he would NOT pass the background check" to a much more stringent test "hurt him on a background check for a top secret clearance." If hurt means that an investigation would be more thorough and take longer, yes. However, based upon the open, vetted literature on the "association with Ayers" there is no reason to suspect that Obama would be denied a clearance. On the other hand, it is doubtful that Ayers would certainly receive a top level national security clearance.

Here's a little more that bears on all this "association" logic: "An association fallacy is an inductive formal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. The two types are sometimes referred to as guilt by association and honor by association. Association fallacies are a special case of red herring, and can be based on an appeal to emotion."

[South Bethany]

<snip>If hurt means that an investigation would be more thorough and take longer, yes. However, based upon the open, vetted literature on the "association with Ayers" there is no reason to suspect that Obama would be denied a clearance.<snip>
that sounds about right. Besides, if Sen. McCain had reason to believe that Sen. Obama's past association with Ayers made him a security risk, or in any way unfit to serve, he should have made that argument. Sen. McCain didnt really even try...He brought it up once in the third debate, and just let it drop after Obama gave it a quick dismissal. So it seems McCain himself, who made national security a big part of his basis for running, didn't think much of it.

[aka pumpmaster]

Thankfully in about 8 hours this whole thing will be over (assuming we have a clear winner and not a nightmare like 2000). I'd prefer McCain (of the 2) but it really won't matter. The next 3 years are going to be an economic nightmare that few on this board have ever experienced (those of us old people might remember the stagflation of the late 70s). I also think that Obama (who I think WILL win) won't be able to implement much of a leftist agenda anyway. There are many blue-dog dems who are conservative and understand that they will lose if they support too many left programs. I aslo think the press turns on Obama sometime around June 09.

[surf]

Anyone who is claiming that the policies that are being proposed by Obama are reminiscent of socialism are sorely mistaken. It would take a mere glace at wikipedia, let alone reading one of the greatest political, social, and literary works of all time, "The Communist Manifesto", to understand that what Obama is proposing is not even close to central planning socialism.

Under Socialism, there operates a Board of Central Planners. This board makes decisions that, at best, represent the best interests of the working class--the same class that all of you in this forum are in. Under the discretion of these planners, the state would control, as well as own the rights to production of goods, and also control their distribution. This is contrary to supply and demand, the system that some how ran it's self into the ground after banks offered loans to people who they knew couldn't afford them. Big business, and corporations are the result, and we, as consumers get the short end of the stick. Subsidizing health care, a fundamental right in the opinion of many, should be the foremost concern to everyone in society. Quality of care will not diminish, and you will be able to choose the provider you want. We are currently, the only western, first world country without some type of universal health care. Obviously, the outrageous salaries of CEO's (who's worth is speculative at best) are more important than the few hundred dollars it would cost to insure your average citizen. The real way in which the system will change will be from the end of the insurance providers. They are the greed driven, maniacal tyrants that are systematically allowing close to a third of our population to be without coverage, or under covered. Secondly, with out governmental subsidies for things like education, the overall productivity of society would greatly diminish. There would be even more poor people, who through no fault of their own, would remain in the same economic condition that they were born into, perpetuating the cycle of poverty. So any idiot can see, that these programs, while not resembling true socialism in any way, are really in the best interest of everyone in society. Take a minute to think about that. Society, not the individual--not just you. It's a hard concept for many, especially the right. And for all you libertarians out there, socialism has historically, and even currently, had a better run than your self interested, self absorbed theory of individual liberty. We have just about as much individual liberty as is possible, while still providing a decent standard of living for everyone is society. Progressivism, not conservatism (the mindless adherence to principles that stress tradition and maintaining the status quo), should be the mentality of everyone in society. For it is far more beneficial for everyone in that society, including ultimately one's self. The proposed ideas for distribution of what are ultimately fundamental human rights in our current day and age, should be at the highest level of concern for every individual in our society. However, about half of our country is still cling to their own greedy motives, claiming that the left is taking their hard earned money. If you make enough money to live comfortably, then you have a moral obligation, especially if you identify with republicans who through some sort of twisted logic claim to be Christian, are on the moral grounds for at least choose the candidate who's tax policy helps those who have nothing.

In short, the same convoluted, unintelligible, uninformed arguments that are coming from people who ultimately accuse Obama of being an atheist and a Muslim, which is of course a contradiction, are the same people who largely claim to be Christians and Conservatives. There is then another logical contradiction on hand. Those who cling to the teaching of Christianity, largely out of fear, aren't even willing to sacrifice which will ultimately, under Obama's tax plan, amount to less than 100 dollars annually, to help their fellow man. Trickle down economics does not work, and it never has-- it was called the Regan Administration. Those who claim that Obama wants to take their "hard earned" dollars and spread the wealth around, into a system that is according to the right socialism, are sorely mistaken. It is not socialism, you are just greedy hippocrits.

[Shakagrom]

if obama messes things up which he prob will if hes elected; then ill move to australia.

uh oh... i guess youll be moving to the gold coast in two months

[JMD]

if obama messes things up which he prob will if hes elected; then ill move to australia.


You are a moron. Could he REALLY mess things up worse then it has been the past 8 years? I guess you also support Bush. I understand, Bush has been the best president the country EVER had. :rolleyes:

P.S. You won't be missed.

[aka pumpmaster]

Your right about the first part, but the authoritarian governments of those countries do not follow with the true nature of a transformation into communism. The government would be formed by the lower class not by military, or single authoritarian rulers. Like i explained like six pages or so ago, communism comes about when the working class realizes it's control over capitalist markets, through it's role as the production of goods. When the working class rises to rebel against the powers of the bourgeoisie, the majority of the population will take control over the means of production along with the government institutions that backed the upper class. This creates a small strong centralized government of proletariat workers who evenly distribute the yields of production. Eventually the need for government becomes arbitrary and ownership of property is autonomous. This is the eventual form of government we would maintain until the end of time. Had this taken place in any former socialist countries, you would have seen a swift decrease in poverty, but instead you saw the socialist governments of eastern Europe collapse.

That would work accept for one little thing...human nature. that small strong central government would eventually seek more and more power. why is it that the communist/socialist experiment has never once come close to succeeding? Because once in power, the proletariat becomes enamored with power and seeks to accumulate more and more of it.

[aka pumpmaster]

You are a moron. Could he REALLY mess things up worse then it has been the past 8 years? I guess you also support Bush. I understand, Bush has been the best president the country EVER had. :rolleyes:

P.S. You won't be missed.


Bush wasn't stellar by a long shot but I challenge you to name ONE president who since the end of WWII who had to deal with the number of crisis that Bush had. He inherited a recession, then 911 then Katrina then this current financial disaster. Here's a good article fro you to think about (written by an ex-Kerry aide no less):

Earlier this year, 12,000 people in San Francisco signed a petition in support of a proposition on a local ballot to rename an Oceanside sewage plant after George W. Bush. The proposition is only one example of the classless disrespect many Americans have shown the president.
According to recent Gallup polls, the president's average approval rating is below 30% -- down from his 90% approval in the wake of 9/11. Mr. Bush has endured relentless attacks from the left while facing abandonment from the right.
This is the price Mr. Bush is paying for trying to work with both Democrats and Republicans. During his 2004 victory speech, the president reached out to voters who supported his opponent, John Kerry, and said, "Today, I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support, and I will work to earn it. I will do all I can do to deserve your trust."
Those bipartisan efforts have been met with crushing resistance from both political parties.
The president's original Supreme Court choice of Harriet Miers alarmed Republicans, while his final nomination of Samuel Alito angered Democrats. His solutions to reform the immigration system alienated traditional conservatives, while his refusal to retreat in Iraq has enraged liberals who have unrealistic expectations about the challenges we face there.
It seems that no matter what Mr. Bush does, he is blamed for everything. He remains despised by the left while continuously disappointing the right.
Yet it should seem obvious that many of our country's current problems either existed long before Mr. Bush ever came to office, or are beyond his control. Perhaps if Americans stopped being so divisive, and congressional leaders came together to work with the president on some of these problems, he would actually have had a fighting chance of solving them.
Like the president said in his 2004 victory speech, "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us. And when we come together and work together, there is no limit to the greatness of America."

To be sure, Mr. Bush is not completely alone. His low approval ratings put him in the good company of former Democratic President Harry S. Truman, whose own approval rating sank to 22% shortly before he left office. Despite Mr. Truman's low numbers, a 2005 Wall Street Journal poll found that he was ranked the seventh most popular president in history.
Just as Americans have gained perspective on how challenging Truman's presidency was in the wake of World War II, our country will recognize the hardship President Bush faced these past eight years -- and how extraordinary it was that he accomplished what he did in the wake of the September 11 attacks.
The treatment President Bush has received from this country is nothing less than a disgrace. The attacks launched against him have been cruel and slanderous, proving to the world what little character and resolve we have. The president is not to blame for all these problems. He never lost faith in America or her people, and has tried his hardest to continue leading our nation during a very difficult time.
Our failure to stand by the one person who continued to stand by us has not gone unnoticed by our enemies. It has shown to the world how disloyal we can be when our president needed loyalty -- a shameful display of arrogance and weakness that will haunt this nation long after Mr. Bush has left the White House.
Mr. Shapiro is an investigative reporter and lawyer who previously interned with John F. Kerry's legal team during the presidential election in 2004.

[Db2k5]

Bush wasn't stellar by a long shot but I challenge you to name ONE president who since the end of WWII who had to deal with the number of crisis that Bush had. He inherited a recession, then 911 then Katrina then this current financial disaster. Here's a good article fro you to think about (written by an ex-Kerry aide no less):

Earlier this year, 12,000 people in San Francisco signed a petition in support of a proposition on a local ballot to rename an Oceanside sewage plant after George W. Bush. The proposition is only one example of the classless disrespect many Americans have shown the president.
According to recent Gallup polls, the president's average approval rating is below 30% -- down from his 90% approval in the wake of 9/11. Mr. Bush has endured relentless attacks from the left while facing abandonment from the right.
This is the price Mr. Bush is paying for trying to work with both Democrats and Republicans. During his 2004 victory speech, the president reached out to voters who supported his opponent, John Kerry, and said, "Today, I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support, and I will work to earn it. I will do all I can do to deserve your trust."
Those bipartisan efforts have been met with crushing resistance from both political parties.
The president's original Supreme Court choice of Harriet Miers alarmed Republicans, while his final nomination of Samuel Alito angered Democrats. His solutions to reform the immigration system alienated traditional conservatives, while his refusal to retreat in Iraq has enraged liberals who have unrealistic expectations about the challenges we face there.
It seems that no matter what Mr. Bush does, he is blamed for everything. He remains despised by the left while continuously disappointing the right.
Yet it should seem obvious that many of our country's current problems either existed long before Mr. Bush ever came to office, or are beyond his control. Perhaps if Americans stopped being so divisive, and congressional leaders came together to work with the president on some of these problems, he would actually have had a fighting chance of solving them.
Like the president said in his 2004 victory speech, "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us. And when we come together and work together, there is no limit to the greatness of America."

To be sure, Mr. Bush is not completely alone. His low approval ratings put him in the good company of former Democratic President Harry S. Truman, whose own approval rating sank to 22% shortly before he left office. Despite Mr. Truman's low numbers, a 2005 Wall Street Journal poll found that he was ranked the seventh most popular president in history.
Just as Americans have gained perspective on how challenging Truman's presidency was in the wake of World War II, our country will recognize the hardship President Bush faced these past eight years -- and how extraordinary it was that he accomplished what he did in the wake of the September 11 attacks.
The treatment President Bush has received from this country is nothing less than a disgrace. The attacks launched against him have been cruel and slanderous, proving to the world what little character and resolve we have. The president is not to blame for all these problems. He never lost faith in America or her people, and has tried his hardest to continue leading our nation during a very difficult time.
Our failure to stand by the one person who continued to stand by us has not gone unnoticed by our enemies. It has shown to the world how disloyal we can be when our president needed loyalty -- a shameful display of arrogance and weakness that will haunt this nation long after Mr. Bush has left the White House.
Mr. Shapiro is an investigative reporter and lawyer who previously interned with John F. Kerry's legal team during the presidential election in 2004.


Wow, you just nailed that right on the head. Good one. It always amazes me why people don't like him. No one ever has a good answer, and if someone responds to this, "He is an idiot, he doesn't know what he is doing", I am going to scream. Someone give me a good answer, please.

[Zansurf]

Bush wasn't stellar by a long shot but I challenge you to name ONE president who since the end of WWII who had to deal with the number of crisis that Bush had. He inherited a recession, then 911 then Katrina then this current financial disaster. Here's a good article fro you to think about (written by an ex-Kerry aide no less):



He did not inherit a recession from Clinton, in fact the economy was doing pretty well.(http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/eightyears-03.html) As far as 9/11 goes, he obviously lost his cool, or just lied to people because there is multiple reasons i get for going to war with Iraq after we were attacked by people from Saudi Arabia, then afterwards a group based out of Afganistan took responsibility, then quickly fled to Pakistan where they are protected. I'm sorry but there is no justification for overthrowing Saddam, we had bigger problems. Katrina was probably the most challenging thing, but only because it came at a difficult time. It would seem that times were difficult however, due to the fact that we had a massive increase in the defense budget. As much as throwing money at the problem of Iraq didn't work, I think katrina might have been fixable by spending. The financial disaster is quite a challenge and he should not be blamed for this crisis. The mortgage bubble was allowed to happen by the government, but it was the responsibility of the banks, and of the people getting loans to be more responsible. Bush is reacting the way any president would in the face of such a complex crisis.

[Db2k5]

[QUOTE=Zansurf;22274I'm sorry but there is no justification for overthrowing Saddam[/QUOTE]

Nevermind, it would be like pissing up a rope.

[rodndtube]

That would work accept for one little thing...human nature. that small strong central government would eventually seek more and more power. why is it that the communist/socialist experiment has never once come close to succeeding? Because once in power, the proletariat becomes enamored with power and seeks to accumulate more and more of it.

This is a specious argument... one could say the same thing about the other extremes, the laissez-faire/anarcho-capitalists capitalism experiment. There are not absolute morale truths in the extremes (referencing virtue ethics and the golden mean).

[rodndtube]

<snip> Katrina was probably the most challenging thing, but only because it came at a difficult time. It would seem that times were difficult however, due to the fact that we had a massive increase in the defense budget. As much as throwing money at the problem of Iraq didn't work, I think katrina might have been fixable by spending.

The Bush administration failed in its response to Katrina because of a failure to be decisive and the failure to provide leadership. This in part reflected the administration's philosophy on the role of government. It took days before the president invoked the powers and authorities of the National Response Plan and as the Commander in Chief he failed to decisively direct the military components of response. To his credit, Bush learned quite a bit from his failure just as he learned quite a bit from his failures in Iraq.

[wallysurfr]

No justification in overthrowing Saddam? Seriously? The man (it's a stretch to call him a man) comitted genocide. Do you know what genocide is? It would be like President Elect Obama releasing nerve gas to everyone in Kentucky because they don't agree with what he believes in. His sons, Udah and Usah sp? and his militia were running around raping and killing at will. The US were the only ones willing to step in and put a stop to his dictatorship and we did. Saddam went from owning 40-50 some mansions to living in a hole hiding from us like a coward. He was tried by his own court system, found guilty of mass murder and hung from the gallows. And you say there is no justification for overthrowing Saddam? wow bro.

I think the previous poster has hit it out of the park with the post about our President George W. Bush! Agreed, he has not done everything perfectly but it is impossible to please everyone in this country. I think that the fact that we have not been attacked on our sol since 9/11 makes his presidency a success in itself. Plus, multiple all time highs in the stock market during his terms? Everyone says the market is melting down but seriously open google finance click the hyper link that says DJIA and click the word max directly above the chart. The Dow is right where it should be, maybe a little lower. We didn't have a meltdown, we had a correction. The only people who are crying are people who bought blue chip stocks at all time highs, when they were overvalued.

Hurricane Katrina? I agree a major disaster. But those people had DAYS to get out of there! If you lived in an area (like I'm sure you do) that is below sea level and the government tells you that there is a cat 5 hurricane coming right for you with a 30 foot surge and you must evacuate what would you do? They made their own decision to stay there when they were warned and they paid the price. There was no reason for even one person to die because of Hurricane Katrina. The time it took for aid to arrive to the area is another story and yes, I think the gov could have done more to declare a state of emergency there. You know what the people of New Orleans were doing when the gov was trying to help? They were looting and rioting. The gov gave everyone involved a debit card with around $1000 on it to help them get back on their feet yet they felt the need to break into every store and steal everything and then cry about how no one did anything to help them. Give me a break!

[rodndtube]

No justification in overthrowing Saddam? Seriously? The man (it's a stretch to call him a man) comitted genocide. Do you know what genocide is?

Personally, I would ardently assert that the Bush administration had insufficient justification in overthrowing Saddam. In invading and occupying Iraq, Bush departed from accepted conservative policies of interfering militarily in the internal affairs of other nations. Not to mention "nation building" which he and the Republican party had explicitly debunked in the run up of the 2000 elections.

Was Saddam a horrid person? Yes. Did he lead a nasty regime? Yes. Did women have more liberties? Yes. Could one freely drink beer and spirits? Yes. Were there religious freedoms? Yes. Was radical Shia Islam kept in check? Yes.

Genocide is an ongoing atrocity in many countries and regions of the world. We use this atrocity as an excuse to become involved in the affairs of others when we choose to do so, not as a matter of policy.

[aka pumpmaster]

The Bush administration failed in its response to Katrina because of a failure to be decisive and the failure to provide leadership. This in part reflected the administration's philosophy on the role of government. It took days before the president invoked the powers and authorities of the National Response Plan and as the Commander in Chief he failed to decisively direct the military components of response. To his credit, Bush learned quite a bit from his failure just as he learned quite a bit from his failures in Iraq.

Actually for Katrina it is the local (city/state) job to respond and THEN ask for federal assistance if they need it. I wasn't the feds job to jump in from the get go.

[xgen70]

Most of you need to read a little something about GeoPolitics. This administration already acknowledged the real reason why they went into Iraq, ....it was Strategic. The problem is no one was listening when Ms. Rice said it.

If you have any time, try reading....The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And Its Geostrategic Imperatives.

iF YOU WERE TO READ THIS BOOK, you will find that it was wrote and published in 1997. What should stand out in your mind while you read is the fact that many of the thoughtS in the book have been acted on after the fact.........since in fact, to a great extent MANY OF THE EVENTS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE SINCE THIS BOOK BEING PUBLISHED HAVE COME TO PASS.

What I am trying to say is that very few of you have much of a clue about anything dealing with matters so far above your pay grade, that you are in effect the blind leading the blind.

Not that I know anything, but......I really do not understand how the vast majority of people can not understand that throughout the last 7000 years of history, those in power will do anything to remain in power. This would include conspiring/colluding in order to remain in power.

people often make fun of those who believe in conspiring thoeries, and yes many do need to be made fun of. However, was the Christ<<<just as an example>>> not conspired against?

Research........Project Echelon........this program has been in place since at least the early 90's.

So in conclusion, I would take an educated guess and say, as far as Iraq is concerned, they needed a pretext in order to obtain the strategic goal of placing forward bases in central Asia.......hence the reason 9/11 had to happen. The idea that no one in our goverment knew of or had any sort of prior knowledge should be silly to even consider.

The rest is up to you to fill in the blanks..


Now many of you will want to break down my arguement, but really, do yourself a favor and read a little more.

[wallysurfr]

Was radical Shia Islam kept in check? Absolutely not.

You mean to tell me that you don't think that there was one terrorist that was after the US in the entire country of Iraq?

[JMD]

No justification in overthrowing Saddam? Seriously? The man (it's a stretch to call him a man) comitted genocide. Do you know what genocide is? !

I won't even comment on your little Katrina rant but this is crap. We went to Iraq for a reason and the sole reason was not to overthrow Saddam. Why not help out Tibet or Rawanda (sp? don't care) if we wanted to be O so righteous and help someone in need? Have you been to Iraq? We did such a great job in liberation man they LOVE us over there now. Talk about Imperial expansion...:rolleyes:

That argument you just posted is stupid and an old one for the Bush party. If people still believe that, they are morons. Sure we got the "bad guy" and it was a great secondary mission success. But that is NOT the reason we went into Iraq. I guess whatever the government feeds some people they just chew on and like it. That is why this country will never get over the whole Dem and Repub bullcrap. Open your goddamn eyes.

As a side note I am not a loyal little Democract/liberal or a Repub/Righty, I try to keep my views open and true and I must say, Bush did some ****y stuff and it shows on all accounts. Most countries hate us and our financial situation meets his qualifications. The guy did run what was it again? 6 businesses into the ground? ****, why not a country now.

[South Bethany]

The Bush administration failed in its response to Katrina because of a failure to be decisive and the failure to provide leadership. This in part reflected the administration's philosophy on the role of government. It took days before the president invoked the powers and authorities of the National Response Plan and as the Commander in Chief he failed to decisively direct the military components of response. To his credit, Bush learned quite a bit from his failure just as he learned quite a bit from his failures in Iraq.

appointing someone to lead your emergency management agency without ANY experience in emergency management wasn't very smart either. Not that any head of FEMA could have really been prepared for Katrina, but the first two weeks were mismanaged. And on a disaster that big, FEMA should have realized city and state governments were going to need Federal assistance from the start. Chertoff would have known that, having an emergency response background.

[rodndtube]

Actually for Katrina it is the local (city/state) job to respond and THEN ask for federal assistance if they need it. I wasn't the feds job to jump in from the get go.
That is true for lesser emergencies, but not so for large scale disastors especially when there are multi-state effects. For example, contrast the two approaches taken
* August 30, 2005 — Secretary Michael Chertoff invoked the National Response Plan the day after Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast on the morning of August 29, 2005. By so doing, the Secretary assumed the leadership role triggered by the law to bear primary responsibility to manage said crisis. The invocation occurred due to the inability of local and state government to handle the situation.
* September 22, 2005 — In advance of the landfall of Hurricane Rita, Chertoff declared the storm an incident of national significance and put preparations in place in the gulf region of Texas.

Ordinarily, only the Governor can initiate a request for a Presidential emergency or
major disaster declaration. In extraordinary circumstances, the President may
unilaterally make such a declaration. It is normal, and prudent, for the executive branch to initiate actions in anticipation of catastrophic events such as Katrina.

[rodndtube]

You mean to tell me that you don't think that there was one terrorist that was after the US in the entire country of Iraq?

The statement above is a logical and rhetorical extremism. One could also conjecture, "Do you mean there is not one radical right terrorist in the USA?" One only needs to recall Oklahoma City. Prior to the invasion of Iraq most of the Islamic terrorists that wished to do harm to the USA were from Saudi Arabia and trained in Afghanistan.

Pre- and post-Iraq, where are most of the radical madrassas and their sources of funding? Ditto for radical Wahhabism?

[DavidOlya]

Holy sh1t, 20 pages!!!!!!! That is a long thread. Maybe some kind of record? What are we talking about?:confused: