Summer Time Flatness Philosophy Discussion

[58845]

It's flat. Lets have a discussion.

Time. A concept? A creation of man? Is it tangible? What is it?

[conway]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k283/jfendley/cass_shay_locomotive.jpg

[Swellinfo]

It's flat. Lets have a discussion.

Time. A concept? A creation of man? Is it tangible? What is it?

of course time is a creation of man... Time is defined by the relation of one object to another object, and for us humans it is the distance the earth moves with respect to the sun. We could very well call time - distance or speed.

time = distance / speed.

[terra-firma intolerant]

I think it's a waste of time

[58845]

Ah yes. The oh so common theory that a train is a metaphor for time. An interesting concept, with there being so many similarities once one looks.They were both created by man, but once activated, cannot be stopped except by enormous counter force. There is also the similarity which involves multiple tracks (represented in time as multiple realities) coming to cross each other. The train theory suggests than man has the power to choose between realities (as one may change tracks) and many question that. If we can change between realities, or bands of time, how do we? Do we do it subconsciously, without noticing? Finally there is the parallelism that if time is dislodged or trains are derailed from their paths (or tracks) there could be disastrous results (2012?). Seeing as how humans have managed to avoid this, this portion of the theory is also untested. All things to consider. I'm very glad you brought this up Conway, no time discussion is ever complete without analysis of the train theorem.
http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/33521/2736228590101613950S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2736228590101613950DKYWwA)

Serious replies are also welcome and encouraged.

[58845]

of course time is a creation of man... Time is defined by the relation of one object to another object, and for us humans it is the distance the earth moves with respect to the sun. We could very well call time - distance or speed.

time = distance / speed.
Ahh, a different take on time. I was thinking more of the larger units more than seconds and minutes; decades, centuries, eons.
So if time is a creation of man, before man was around did the sun not set, did the months not pass?

[wbsurfer]

this thread is a total waste of time.

[58845]

I think it's a waste of time

WELL I THINK ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FLAT AND CHOPPY FOR THE NEXT WEEK SO WE MIGHT AS WELL DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE. YOU'RE A WASTE OF TIME. jk lol

[Swellinfo]

Ahh, a different take on time. I was thinking more of the larger units more than seconds and minutes; decades, centuries, eons.
So if time is a creation of man, before man was around did the sun not set, did the months not pass?

yes, i say before man, time did not exist, since we invented such an idea.

But, the sun did set and the months did pass... that is after the point our solar system was created. Suggesting a beginning to this concept of time.

[wbsurfer]

WELL I THINK ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FLAT AND CHOPPY FOR THE NEXT WEEK SO WE MIGHT AS WELL DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE. YOU'RE A WASTE OF TIME. jk lol

actually the surf for today was predicted choppy but in the morning today it was semi clean with rare waist high. so if you just find the right sand bar it could get fun even if its choppy.

[58845]

actually the surf for today was predicted choppy but in the morning today it was semi clean with rare waist high. so if you just find the right sand bar it could get fun even if its choppy.

Yeah I actually got a few fun ones today.

[58845]

yes, i say before man, time did not exist, since we invented such an idea.

But, the sun did set and the months did pass... that is after the point our solar system was created. Suggesting a beginning to this concept of time.

This might be slightly redundant to my previous post but hear me out. A day is a measure of time. A day is also the time it takes for the earth to complete one rotation on its axis. Did the earth not rotate on its axis before man, and therefore time passed regardless of whether or not the concept existed yet? Take a concept such as beauty. Beauty is a concept of man. Before man was around, was nature not still beautiful?

And if I wanted to be really nit picky, did planets not rotate and therefore time not exist in other solar systems, before the creation of our own?

[wbsurfer]

This might be slightly redundant to my previous post but hear me out. A day is a measure of time. A day is also the time it takes for the earth to complete one rotation on its axis. Did the earth not rotate on its axis before man, and therefore time passed regardless of whether or not the concept existed yet? Take a concept such as beauty. Beauty is a concept of man. Before man was around, was nature not still beautiful?

And if I wanted to be really nit picky, did planets not rotate and therefore time not exist in other solar systems, before the creation of our own?

how long does it take you to think of all of this?

[conway]

alas, time is but a fleeting concept concocted during mankind's feeble attempt of existence. If humans have only been around for a short time in the earths life, and the concept of time is mans invention, have not humans been around since the beginning of time? What is invention? Are other things strictly subjective to man? Mathematics, science, writing, literature, all these things that we use to describe the workd around us, are they only applicable to the domain of man? Did these methods of description apply before us and will they apply after us?
How can you actually tell time has passed?
if you were locked in a windowless room, how would you be able to tell?

[adowcett]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k283/jfendley/cass_shay_locomotive.jpg

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/45127/2516277850101613950S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2516277850101613950ebYKCF)

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/2007/bb-76079-310707.jpg

[Swellinfo]

This might be slightly redundant to my previous post but hear me out. A day is a measure of time. A day is also the time it takes for the earth to complete one rotation on its axis. Did the earth not rotate on its axis before man, and therefore time passed regardless of whether or not the concept existed yet? Take a concept such as beauty. Beauty is a concept of man. Before man was around, was nature not still beautiful?

And if I wanted to be really nit picky, did planets not rotate and therefore time not exist in other solar systems, before the creation of our own?

dude, the earth has existed some 6+ billion years before man existed. Man has only been around for only a blink of an eye in universe time. You should read Stephen Hawking's "Brief History of Time". or "The Whole Shebang" by Timothy Ferris.

[conway]

dude, the earth has existed some 6+ billion years before man existed. Man has only been around for only a blink of an eye in universe time. You should read Stephen Hawking's "Brief History of Time". or "The Whole Shebang" by Timothy Ferris.

BUT if time didnt exist til man existed, how is that possible?

[58845]

Interesting points Conway, I will only tackle a few for now.



if you were locked in a windowless room, how would you be able to tell?
If you had a clock. No clock? Your fingernails growing.



How can you actually tell time has passed?
The concept of time itself (if it is a concept) is based on things passing, not the other way around. Time not passing while you experience reality (are living and breathing) goes against the fundamental concept of time.

[conway]

there's no clock and your fingernails and hair growth has been stunted with a special chemical formulated by the obama administration to rally support for the new healthcare overhaul.

[58845]

dude, the earth has existed some 6+ billion years before man existed. .
I am aware of this. Thank you anyway.

My point is, for that whole 6 billion years, time was passing regardless of whether it had been invented, regardless of whether man was there to watch it pass. If the events through which we measure time took place, then time took place.

[58845]

there's no clock and your fingernails and hair growth has been stunted with a special chemical formulated by the obama administration to rally support for the new healthcare overhaul.

You naturally sleep. If its uninterrupted it will last for around 8-10 hours. One period of that followed by one period of wakefulness around 10-12 hours, will be a day. If sleep is interrupted you're screwed. Thats not to say time won't pass, you just won't be able to measure it.

[conway]

You naturally sleep. If its uninterrupted it will last for around 8-10 hours. One period of that followed by one period of wakefulness around 10-12 hours, will be a day. If sleep is interrupted you're screwed. Thats not to say time won't pass, you just won't be able to measure it.

but what proof of the passing time will you have?

[58845]

but what proof of the passing time will you have?

Over a long period your skin will wrinkle, and if you are still young you might be able to notice your growth.

[Swellinfo]

I am aware of this. Thank you anyway.

My point is, for that whole 6 billion years, time was passing regardless of whether it had been invented, regardless of whether man was there to watch it pass. If the events through which we measure time took place, then time took place.

ok, then. you answered your own question.

[Matchell]

.....we really need some swell.

[terra-firma intolerant]

WELL I THINK ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FLAT AND CHOPPY FOR THE NEXT WEEK SO WE MIGHT AS WELL DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE. YOU'RE A WASTE OF TIME. jk lol

No... I meant time... is a waste of time.


By the way, by some twist of fate, I rented Deja Vu (that movie with Denzel Washington) and it basically blew my mind. Especially how everything was the same as it was 4 1/4 days ahead while he was in the past but he somehow managed to save the damsel in distress without having a blackhole come out of nowhere and destroy us all... It was pretty funky how his "first" self died, but his past self stayed alive... which brings me to another question regarding time (even though I think it's a waste of time).

If you find a way to go back in time, can you change the future? Or does the time that you were previously in already contain everything that happened when your other self went back in time? For example, say you saw that there was an airplane crash. You decided to go back in time to stop it. But you (in the past) actually caused the plane crash. Which is weird because that is almost destiny (could you control what happened?). Also, if you died in the past dimension would you still be alive in the present? Denzel Washington managed to save the girl, but I think it was Hollywood voodoo.



Take a concept such as beauty. Beauty is a concept of man. Before man was around, was nature not still beautiful?

Think about this: Beauty is a perception, meaning something has to be perceived as beautiful for it to have beauty. This is a man-made concept, but it is not limited to just humans as a whole. Each individual has their own perception of beauty, for instance, someone may find cars to be beautiful, while someone else thinks that they're ugly, smog emitting abominations. Nature, though is widely regarded as beautiful because it is not man-made, it is created by a higher being (or presence), so it is naturally instilled in us to see beauty in nature. But if there were no humans on earth, would nature be beautiful? but no one would be able to judge that it would be beautiful. It would just be there.

[terra-firma intolerant]

Based on the fact that it takes time for light to travel, then if time were to be stopped - or paused, if you will - would you still be able to see? Or would everything be black, since light isn't moving to your retina... or maybe the last image of light that you saw would be trapped in your retina, so no matter what you did in the presence of stopped time, nothing would seem to change. Hmmm...

[bfloyd]

You naturally sleep. If its uninterrupted it will last for around 8-10 hours. One period of that followed by one period of wakefulness around 10-12 hours, will be a day. If sleep is interrupted you're screwed. Thats not to say time won't pass, you just won't be able to measure it.


Very true for humans on earth. Define time however! It could be infinite space and density, rather a dimension, a structure carried throughout the universe for us to live by. Two views: the 1st view is that time does not refer to any kind of "container" that events and objects "move through", nor to any entity that "flows", but that it is instead part of a fundamental intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which humans sequence and compare events. This second view, Gottfried Leibniz and Immanuel Kant holds that time is neither an event nor a thing, and thus is not itself measurable nor can it be travelled.

--got some of that info off the internet, interesting to see the different theories. Aging does happen of what we considered structure time, however it is a bioligical process and natural selection from the day you are concieved. Natural selection gets weaker after our reproductive life starts. Once we are able to have children, we can give our genes to a future generation. If a gene has not killed you, or otherwise prevented you from having a child, then that gene will be passed on. So, you can argue if there is no time or fundamental universal structure in which we live by, and this is a normal process that occurs to the human body, organic life, etc. from the 1st day you were born, does time really play a role of it, or is it just our perception that it does because we are taught the universal structure of time? So it goes back to the theories of time.

Def. can argue that one for a while, interesting!

I guess we can conclude that time is a linear progression of events.

[hanna]

but what proof of the passing time will you have?if it wasn't for time, everything would happen at once.

[zach619]

hehe..

like you have already said. Time is only a human label based on numerous events and factors.

Humans have NO effect on time or space. We are a part of it. "Time" as we define it has ALWAYS been. ALWAYS.

Time is a concept that was LABELLED by humans. But it is only words. "Time" as we know is would NEVER "stand still". If the earth stopped rotating for 30 seconds, it would not fade to black. It would stay constant. It would continue to be whatever light of day it already was... In turn, that could through off our whole ecosystem by having an extra 30 seconds of light or something....

My point is, time is a word that described MANY different things all combined. Its light, distance, speed etc... So, if you take any one of those factors away, then the rest would still do what they do, not affected by the other variables....

There is no "TIME"... There is just all of those other things. Light, speed, distance, rotation, air etc.... So, we just had to somehow identify a systematic way of life. A way that through understanding "TIME" we could stay alive. Like knowing what the seasons are based on sunlight. Back in the day, that determined what and when you could eat... They didnt have refrideraters. People died every winter, every year... And with the labelling of "TIME" we, as man were able to eliminate certain risks on our civilization...

Its just a word... A label.. We did not create anything. We just use that word to PARTIALLY understand the world... Its a lamen term...

[bfloyd]

hehe..

like you have already said. Time is only a human label based on numerous events and factors.

Humans have NO effect on time or space. We are a part of it. "Time" as we define it has ALWAYS been. ALWAYS.

Time is a concept that was LABELLED by humans. But it is only words. "Time" as we know is would NEVER "stand still". If the earth stopped rotating for 30 seconds, it would not fade to black. It would stay constant. It would continue to be whatever light of day it already was... In turn, that could through off our whole ecosystem by having an extra 30 seconds of light or something....

My point is, time is a word that described MANY different things all combined. Its light, distance, speed etc... So, if you take any one of those factors away, then the rest would still do what they do, not affected by the other variables....

There is no "TIME"... There is just all of those other things. Light, speed, distance, rotation, air etc.... So, we just had to somehow identify a systematic way of life. A way that through understanding "TIME" we could stay alive. Like knowing what the seasons are based on sunlight. Back in the day, that determined what and when you could eat... They didnt have refrideraters. People died every winter, every year... And with the labelling of "TIME" we, as man were able to eliminate certain risks on our civilization...

Its just a word... A label.. We did not create anything. We just use that word to PARTIALLY understand the world... Its a lamen term...


The Earth is rotating at a speed of about 1100 miles per hour(defying gravity). If our planet suddenly stopped rotating, the atmosphere would still be in motion at that speed. The atmosphere would be moving so fast it would literally sweep the land masses clear of anything not anchored to bedrock, this would mean rocks, soil, trees, buildings, people and animals. All would be swept up into the atmosphere. However light could stay constant but much different, In this case, one half the Earth would be in daylight for half the year while the other side would be in darkness. The second half of the year it would be reversed. Temperature variations would be far more extreme then they are now. The temperature gradient would affect the wind circulation also. Air would move from the equator to the poles rather then in wind systems parallel to the equator as they are now.

[Swellinfo]

hehe..

like you have already said. Time is only a human label based on numerous events and factors.

Humans have NO effect on time or space. We are a part of it. "Time" as we define it has ALWAYS been. ALWAYS.

Time is a concept that was LABELLED by humans. But it is only words. "Time" as we know is would NEVER "stand still". If the earth stopped rotating for 30 seconds, it would not fade to black. It would stay constant. It would continue to be whatever light of day it already was... In turn, that could through off our whole ecosystem by having an extra 30 seconds of light or something....

My point is, time is a word that described MANY different things all combined. Its light, distance, speed etc... So, if you take any one of those factors away, then the rest would still do what they do, not affected by the other variables....

There is no "TIME"... There is just all of those other things. Light, speed, distance, rotation, air etc.... So, we just had to somehow identify a systematic way of life. A way that through understanding "TIME" we could stay alive. Like knowing what the seasons are based on sunlight. Back in the day, that determined what and when you could eat... They didnt have refrideraters. People died every winter, every year... And with the labelling of "TIME" we, as man were able to eliminate certain risks on our civilization...

Its just a word... A label.. We did not create anything. We just use that word to PARTIALLY understand the world... Its a lamen term...

this is what i was saying.

[wbsurfer]

how do you guys come up with all of this crap?

[conway]

how do you guys come up with all of this crap?

because our brains have developed enough for logic, while the capacity of yours is limited to xbox and your epoxy merrick ****cake.

[wbsurfer]

because our brains have developed enough for logic, while the capacity of yours is limited to xbox and your epoxy merrick ****cake.

i might be selling the merrick as i got a green room. and my brain has developed and my brain is not limited to xbox as i hardly ever play xbox.

[conway]

i might be selling the merrick as i got a green room. and my brain has developed and my brain is not limited to xbox as i hardly ever play xbox.

then what is time

[terra-firma intolerant]

I hate it when I write crazy elaborate posts and no one sees it.

[beagleagle]

"have not humans been around since the beginning of time?"

like it.

"time" did not have a name until humans developed the need to plan ahead for perhaps agricultural or religious purposes such as the mayans with their astrologically based calenders. i believe that this is a beautiful planet and i am fascinated every day

[58845]

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/45127/2516277850101613950S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2516277850101613950ebYKCF)

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/2007/bb-76079-310707.jpg

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/44394/2826787150101613950S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2826787150101613950jWCVBg)

http://www.budd-rdc.org/sets/photos/drm15.png

[conway]

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/44394/2826787150101613950S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2826787150101613950jWCVBg)

http://www.budd-rdc.org/sets/photos/drm15.png

http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/43108/2532632040101613950S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2532632040101613950TuybjB)

[58845]

We three should get together sometime.

http://chevroncarsblog.com/images/photos/cars-trains_lg.jpg

[conway]

things here are getting pretty LOCOmotive

[adowcett]

things here are getting pretty LOCOmotive

http://chethondo.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/not-where-trains-should-go-20454-1235421680-15.jpg

Indeed

[58845]

http://chethondo.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/not-where-trains-should-go-20454-1235421680-15.jpg

Indeed

http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/36384/2556607550101613950S425x425Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2556607550101613950BDBXbZ)

This is what my living room looks like year round.

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/43178/2786121100101613950S500x500Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2786121100101613950NFBvuK)

[conway]

http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/36384/2556607550101613950S425x425Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2556607550101613950BDBXbZ)

This is what my living room looks like year round.

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/43178/2786121100101613950S500x500Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2786121100101613950NFBvuK)

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_02/thomasDM2407_468x377.jpg

[NCsurfer]

Damn this was a long thread