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  1. #41
    the original thread was someone asking for local shapers not who is better

  2. #42
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    Ever hear of Ryan Burch? You gotta wonder how many "ryan burchs" there are out there, just doing their own thing and getting really, REALLY good at it. So good that one day somebody says... Hey, will you make me one of those? I'll pay you.

    And that's how it starts for a lot of local shapers. People see your work, see you or somebody else riding your boards, and like what they see.

    I think what K.Slhater's talking about is when it goes the other way... people want to be professional shapers and put all this effort into making a business, with or without the talent, knowledge, and skill to build great boards consistently, or to be able to translate a particular surfer's needs into a functional piece of equipment.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    The point is that someone with a couple of years under his belt could not possibly be a master at the craft of making a surfboard.
    No one is claiming to be a craftsman on the level of Jim Phillips or Terry Martin, but a local shaper with talent has an inherent advantage over any master craftsman 3000 miles away. They can meet with you in person, see the boards you are currently riding, and know the waves you currently surf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    To list yourself as a local shaper capable of taking feedback from a customer and making a magic board is BS.
    After 200 boards, if you can't make a magic custom board you should hang up the planer. But you are sadly mistaken when you say that a young shaper with under 2000 board can't make a magic board. I am personally friends with 3 shapers in California with under 500 boards who are well respected and considered to be established. One of them, DJ Kane, was invited to compete at the Sacred Craft shape off. Another, Manny Caro has been a featured shaper at Mollusk surf shop, one of the most popular and respected surf shop chains in California, since around 200 boards. The third, Ian Zamora, has been shaping for pro surfers since around 200 boards. These are three quick examples, there are many more. ALL of these guys charge more than $450 for a board. Their designs have been considered MAGIC. Manny is considered an expert in modified Hull design. DK's design, the Swordfish, has been coveted as innovational by many within the industry to the point that he was asked to shape shop label boards for Thalia St surf shop. Ian's HP Fish has been championed by Channel Islands team riders. One CI team rider in particular keeps several Zamora boards in his quiver and has been riding them since before Ian had 200 boards done. Manny actually just broke 500 last year since he started his relationship with Moonlight Glassing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    And to sucker some poor sole into paying $450 for one is a crime.
    You and Kelli do a horrible dis-service to your local brothers by spewing this BS. You're both talking out your a$$ without any substantiation. All three of those shapers above were charging $450 for boards BEFORE they hit 200. They all charge over $450 before hitting 500. And those prices were completely justified by cost of materials and quality of craftsmanship. You are talking about something you have no clue about and potentially hurting local businesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    I have shaped about 8 boards and let me tell you they all work, even the first horid one. But there is no way I could repeat one or even come close to what someone wants with a custom. There is so much that goes into making a surfboard I can't imagine how you could master the skills so fast. I would think with dedication I could consitently shape a good board 50 boards in the future but would still lack the skill to custom tweak a board for local conditions.
    After 50 boards if you CAN'T consistently shape a good board you shouldn't be wasting your time and money. If you've shaped and glassed 8 boards you should have a clue the amount of investment it takes to get to 50 boards. And if you have half a clue about good board design, you should understand how to put all the elements together even at only 8 boards. The real question is whether you have the TALENT to put it all together. Some do and some don't. By 50 boards a halfway intelligent person would stop wasting time and money if they don't have the talent to put it together. That doesn't make you a master craftsman or master shaper. Every shapers work will reach the quality level at a different point and when it does they deserve to make a reasonable profit.

    After materials and overhead, $450 for a shortboard is about $30 an hour. Do the math and you'll find that is only $60k a year. After buying health insurance that's only $50k a year ($40k if you have to buy health insurance for a family). Let's say you make a board a day, which is a gross over-estimate given the market in NJ. But for hypothetical purposes we will assume that you can sell a board a day 5 days a week. That's 260 boards a year. By you and Kellis estimates, it would take 8 years before you could make $450 a board and $40k a year for your family to live on. Think about the absurdity of that now when compared to the cost of living. Or didn't you think about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    Don't get me wrong I'm into American made boards but don't think I have to buy it local to get a great board that will work well in our waves .
    No one said you did. But you CAN get a great board that will work in our waves from a local shaper who has only made 200 boards, contrary to what both you and Kelli are claiming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    I don't give a crap if it is a proven design that was rough shaped by a machine as long as it works. I'm not going to close with a qualifying remark giving props to my local shapers, it's great they do what they do but everyone should be able to buy what they want without fear of the local shaper police silencing them for buying the board that inspires. Also not sure I get the negative vibe against KelliSlhater for making a valid point.
    No one around here should hold it against you for buying a board made in the USA by surfers. But when someone chimes in with gross misinformation about random 2000 board numbers for a shaper to be able to charge a fair price for their boards, people with common sense are going to jump down your throat. Especially when you are potentially hurting their business.

    I agree with the point that there are people who start selling themselves as shapers too soon. I have seen websites displaying boards with outlines that are not symmetrical. A surfer needs to be educated enough to tell the difference. LBcrew stated the problem above. Too many uneducated surfers can't tell the difference. But to say that someone who makes a quality product can't charge a fair price is ridiculous. $450 IS a fair price for a young shaper to charge when you look at the market. To apply a random number like 200 or 2000 is absurd and unless you have shaped that many boards you really do not belong talking about it or discrediting someone else.
    Last edited by rDJ; Jul 25, 2011 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBCrew View Post
    I think what K.Slhater's talking about is when it goes the other way... people want to be professional shapers and put all this effort into making a business, with or without the talent, knowledge, and skill to build great boards consistently, or to be able to translate a particular surfer's needs into a functional piece of equipment.
    Again you are the voice of reason. This is absolutely true. There are people who try to sell themselves before they should. And this may be the point Kelli and Zippy tried to make, unsuccessfully. When they applied random values to the number of boards to be considered a good shaper when they themselves do not have the experience to make these evaluations, that's when this thread went wrong. $450 is a fair price and the going rate for a younger shaper to charge. And by young I mean years shaping, not age. Look at their body of work and not the number of boards they've shaped to decide if you want to buy a board from them. Quite honestly there are some shapers out there who have over 2000 boards shaped who I wouldn't buy from. Quality, not quantity is the real measure.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
    Man that's a lot of effort to discount the point of view that there are too many unpracticed un tried young shapers claiming to be local shapers. Of course there are guys out there that can shape one friggin board and make it perfect, repeatable and sellable but not most it's not possible. For gods sake stop reading **** into these posts and getting worked up. I just hate these boards when everyone piles onto to someone who stated and opinion and starts putting them down. Your post is a perfect example of how " me and kelly" are now in the uniformed, uneducated and unappreciative group. Take a breath and "Stay above the weather".

    What you don't realize is that yours and Kelli's mindsets are the exact reason we do not have many good shapers in our area. People have this warped view that you can't be a good shaper and be from the Northeast because you can't get enough boards under your belt. This has done a great disservice to us as surfers by preventing us from having many local options. We need to support the local surfers who are trying to make it or we will constantly be sending our money 3000 miles across the country or overseas.

  6. #46
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    A perfect example of how this mindset is hurting us as East Coast surfers....

    Several years ago I was Ocean Hut surf shop. I mentioned to Tony (the owner) that I had just bought a great board from Brian Wynn and that he should consider carrying Brian's boards since he is a local shaper who makes quality product.

    Well Tony started this rant on how he wont ride or sell any boards from a shaper who doesn't have 10,000 (literally that number is a direct quote) boards shaped. That is a horrible injustice to Brian. He makes great boards. To not sell Brian's boards because of an absurd number like 10,000 boards.

    What I found out years later is that at one point Tony actually started his own label in California called Cream surfboards. So that was kind of the pot calling the kettle black...

    Anyway this is the mindset that hurts us all as east coast surfers.

  7. #47
    Geez you guys get grumpy quick. So here it is:


    1. As I do recall i said that the rocket was sick that mgarbutt had and was offering it at a good price, he wasn't asking $500 for it, which is the point I was trying to make, would i buy it for 200 yes, $375 probably, $500 no. I understand that there is a lot of time and effort going into making boards, but the shaper needs to compensate for what they are producing. If i were you i would be wanting to shape as many boards as possible to get better and the only way to do that is to make the price worth it for more people to buy your boards. Guys like me aren't the reason for you shapers not selling enough boards, its the prices, they need to be competitive because no matter what a consumer will always compare your boards to that of merrick, js, rusty, bing, hater, etc. Because at the end of the day they can walk into a surf shop and for a couple pennies more buy a professionally made board.

    2. How can you make boards without buying and riding those of other shapers? Many of the new and up and coming shapers ride boards from other shapers to learn and gain experience. Tyler Hatzikian, Chris Christenson, Matt Calvani, Ryan Burch, Tyler warren all ride boards made buy other guys and not just them. So where do you get these boards from?

    3. You can't even compare someone like ryan burch, tanner prarrie, robbie from gate hero, tyler warren, who make sick boards without the numbers, when they themselves are insane surfers and have insane surfers testing there boards. Yes I know who corky carol is, but if you are using him as you savior to tell you that your boards are good, well then thats fine I guess, but corky isn't necessarily putting boards through the works @ his age. If you were to hand your board to Dane Reynolds and he took it out and said he had fun on it are your board Dane Reynolds proven?

    4. When you buy a board from a local surf shop you SUPPORT A LOCAL ECONOMY! gosh forbid you do that.

    5. All you guys are doing is defending this title of surfboard shaper, which is childish all I did was offer a different view which is what forums like these are about. There is obviously ego's that are being hurt right now and any outsider reading this forum will obviously see it. When someone voices a different opinion you go into d-bag mode to defend yourselves when there is no defending necessary.

    P.S. I love how you guys think I have no clue as to what I am talking about
    Last edited by KelliSlhater; Jul 25, 2011 at 12:53 PM.

  8. #48
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    You don't. It is my personal policy and that of most of the guys I surf with to not support ANY shop that does not carry some boards by some established local shapers. THAT keeps the money local, not buying a CI designed for west coast waves and finished by Nguyen from Vietnam.

  9. Saw my name was mentioned, please leave me out of this one. I am no shaper I just make boards for myself and friends for fun thats all. Thanks

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by aka pumpmaster View Post
    You don't. It is my personal policy and that of most of the guys I surf with to not support ANY shop that does not carry some boards by some established local shapers. THAT keeps the money local, not buying a CI designed for west coast waves and finished by Nguyen from Vietnam.
    We'll thats good for you. But you can't seriously tell me that a board from any large company does not work on east coast waves. Hello! Balaram Stack rides CI, Chris Kelly rides 21-13 by Uncle Mikes in Cali, Evan Gieselman rides CI, Jesse Hines rides Super, Brett Barley on JC's, all East Coast Rippers. I guess everyone walking into surf shops are just getting ripped the hell off! Damn surf shop owners carrying boards that work.