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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by zach619 View Post
    I am on the fence with this one, but since our nation was built on Capitalism, I really don't feel too bad about "cutting out the middle man" in most scenarios. I guess my opinion on the "local shapers" etc is this: I think that maybe 5-10% of "local shapers" in our country actually do a quality enough job to justify their prices... For most modern surfers, cutouts and "China" boards are EXACTLY what the surfer really needs. They have been tested and ridden by thousands, both pro and novice and they are mass produced for that very reason... If you are a throw back guy, who wants a bad ass custom single fin or a fish... go for it... I go local with my shaper too. My shaper was one of the best in San Diego, but I still went off the rack 3 out of 4 boards unless he was floating me a board, which he did sometimes... But the simple fact is that I could walk into the Plus One warehouse (Local San Diego Company) who dont mass produce boards, but they produced 10's of thousands per year. Custom art... My Shaper actually did a lot of glass work for them... But their prices were cheaper than most local shapers because they made so many, and the boards were magic sticks... Nothing like walking through, feeling the rails and know what you are getting... Still today, you can get a ridiculous board, with custom art, out the door for $400... If you walk down to OB Surf Shop (My old Local Shop).... The same boards go for $580 off the rack... I mean, its hard for me to justify walking an extra 1/2 mile to "support the shop" when the mark up is obvious...

    But with that being said, it is what it is... I know we all love surfing and we treat it differently than we do when we grocery shop, or shop for cars, or electronics... I mean, most of us I am sure go with the best deal, for the best product. I never read into where my "Panasonic" TV was manufactured and what kind of working conditions they went through... I mean, I buy most boardies and stuff from ROSS, or TJMAX or whatever... they are like 1/3 of the price. it is what it is.

    We just treat surfing differently... And the sad truth to me is this: If you arent a well known shaper, dont get into that "TRADE"... Hobby? Yes.... Trade? No.... There is no money in it unless you are established.... I think we could ALL AGREE, that we would all quit our day jobs tomorrow and shape surfboards for a living if the money was good. I think we would all also agree that owning a surfshop is next on our list of things we would quit work to do everyday and love it if the money was good.... So, what is the answer? I dont know... But you cant justify giving people hard earned money just because they are in your community... Cause the bottom line is, maybe they shouldn't be... I am sure that some shops stay on the cutting edge of great products, that are made locally and support the economy, but the world in capitalist america doesnt work that way... You phone company outsources their call centers. So do your banks... So do your credit card companies.... I mean, half of our fruits and produce are outsourced... So thats life I would say....

    If the Mom and Pop shops go under, its because its just not a healthy business choice.... I wish it werent true, but unless a Ron Jon pops up in Hilton Head Island, I guarantee the reason we have no shops is because the shops dont make money on real surf products... It is what it is...

    Like I said, if it were that easy, we would all own surf shops and shaping shops...
    BUMP!!!! FINALLY, a normal person who see's both sides. That is just the nature of the beast. China isnt the only country manufactuing our products. (I.E Bangladesh, India, Taiwan, El Salvador) Now my intentions were to provide a site for cheap surf stuff. NOT to get into a long debate about China products blah blah. I find it very hipocritical that people take such a strong stance on it but then write crap on a forum with a CHINA MADE laptop most likely bought from Best buy or Wal Mart? How many of you bought your electronics from a Mom and Pop shop?
    And to touch upon what you mention about local shapers, I totally agree. Sorry but most local shapers don't have the skills to charge what they do. If I'm paying for a board I'm getting a quailty custom board from CA. I also pose the question, why would I order a board through my shop, get a 75$ mark up when I can do the same off the internet on my own and have it shipped to my house. Capitalism at is best! The consumer is going to find the best deal, hence, wetsuitwarehouse

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by fupafest View Post
    ...my intentions were to provide a site for cheap surf stuff. NOT to get into a long debate about China products...
    ...and that's a good thing. Like I've said before, if you don't have the luxury of making a choice, then that's fine. But this whole debate opens up an important discussion, with different perspectives. And I think people need to hear all sides to make informed choices. Because, ultimately, the choice is in the power of the buyer, and every dollar is a message to the marketplace, saying what we value and what we don't. I'll spend more for organic food (certain items) because I want to support it. I buy my Christmas tree from the local fire department because I want to support them, too. It's not the cheapest, but it has greater value in some other respect, beyond the dollars and cents. And that's what all the "blah blah" is about.

  3. #43
    I agree that you should support local businesses whenever possible. The outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to China has killed our economy. The manufacturing businesses profits used to be funneled back into the economy. The jobs in those manufacturing plants were lost. There salaries also were funnelled back into the economy. The list goes on and on as goose said earlier. Taxes alone on those things could help reduce deficits and help the economy strive. I do believe that if you don't buy goods from China to support the local shops, you must not hire illegal mexicans or give money to illegal mexicans either. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite. Illegals cost this country billions of dollars including jobs. They lowered the job wage where people can't even take the jobs that they used to do. This is because they have huge amounts of people living in houses to split high rents that the law abiding citizen with that same job can't afford because they abide by certificate of occupany laws. The list never ends with the drain that illegals have on our economy. Section 8, welfare, food stamps all for non-citizens that us the real citizens pay in taxes. They send all their money back to relatives in other countries which never gets into our economy. The thing is that Americans are to blame. They want the cheaper prices for fixes to their house, cheaper landscaping, etc. Illegals and China are bringing this economy to an eventual disaster. So make sure to buy crap you don't need from China, eat a cheap meal at a restaurant with illegal mexicans and keep supporting this vicious cycle. Me personally, I try to only buy American made but it's hard. I also won't eat at restaurants with illegals and I'll never hire a company that uses illegals. I ask construction and landscaping companies if they use illegals before hiring them.
    Last edited by barrels4liam; Mar 6, 2013 at 07:38 PM. Reason: billions not millions

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrels4liam View Post
    I agree that you should support local businesses whenever possible. The outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to China has killed our economy. The manufacturing businesses profits used to be funneled back into the economy. The jobs in those manufacturing plants were lost. There salaries also were funnelled back into the economy. The list goes on and on as goose said earlier. Taxes alone on those things could help reduce deficits and help the economy strive. I do believe that if you don't buy goods from China to support the local shops, you must not hire illegal mexicans or give money to illegal mexicans either. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite. Illegals cost this country billions of dollars including jobs. They lowered the job wage where people can't even take the jobs that they used to do. This is because they have huge amounts of people living in houses to split high rents that the law abiding citizen with that same job can't afford because they abide by certificate of occupany laws. The list never ends with the drain that illegals have on our economy. Section 8, welfare, food stamps all for non-citizens that us the real citizens pay in taxes. They send all their money back to relatives in other countries which never gets into our economy. The thing is that Americans are to blame. They want the cheaper prices for fixes to their house, cheaper landscaping, etc. Illegals and China are bringing this economy to an eventual disaster. So make sure to buy crap you don't need from China, eat a cheap meal at a restaurant with illegal mexicans and keep supporting this vicious cycle. Me personally, I try to only buy American made but it's hard. I also won't eat at restaurants with illegals and I'll never hire a company that uses illegals. I ask construction and landscaping companies if they use illegals before hiring them.
    Guess you don't drive a car either.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewengineer View Post
    Guess you don't drive a car either.
    Perfection is impossible, you just do the best you can.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by oipaul View Post
    Perfection is impossible, you just do the best you can.
    It is hypocritical to judge others while also being part of the problem. It isn't just cars, btw.

  7. #47
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    I agree with you on all of those points, however, these so called "illegals" etc, just simply work harder, do better work, never complain, dont look for handouts and run at an efficiency rate that people in the US generally havent done for decades... I will NEVER hire any illegals, but the hispanic community as a whole in this nation has taken over the job market based on hard work and results. I mean, look at any Kitchen in any restaurant on the west coast... They all run smooth as silk, and english is a second language back there.... But everyone is on time. They break their backs all day for a reasonable rate... and when you put a few "americans" next to them, they simply cant keep up... I am all about proper immigration etc, but its way bigger than that. Every mexican that worked in my restaurants were LEGAL... 100%, but they did incredible jobs... It is what it is... They would send money back to Mexico, but that is their business....

    And to be honest, aside from Landscaping and Kitchen work, these "illegals" or non-illegals are taking the jobs that no one else wants.... The "Dirty Work" as it were.... So now, if you are collecting grease out of grease traps, you cant expect a HUGE wage because its "dirty work".... Its just fair now... thats all.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by brewengineer View Post
    It is hypocritical to judge others while also being part of the problem. It isn't just cars, btw.
    It's impossible to buy a car with all American parts unless it's over 50 years old. You can at least buy a car that is assembled in the US by American workers and the transmission was built in America. You sir, are the problem. You probably would ship anything and everyone off to China to make a few bucks.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by zach619 View Post
    I agree with you on all of those points, however, these so called "illegals" etc, just simply work harder, do better work, never complain, dont look for handouts and run at an efficiency rate that people in the US generally havent done for decades... I will NEVER hire any illegals, but the hispanic community as a whole in this nation has taken over the job market based on hard work and results. I mean, look at any Kitchen in any restaurant on the west coast... They all run smooth as silk, and english is a second language back there.... But everyone is on time. They break their backs all day for a reasonable rate... and when you put a few "americans" next to them, they simply cant keep up... I am all about proper immigration etc, but its way bigger than that. Every mexican that worked in my restaurants were LEGAL... 100%, but they did incredible jobs... It is what it is... They would send money back to Mexico, but that is their business....

    And to be honest, aside from Landscaping and Kitchen work, these "illegals" or non-illegals are taking the jobs that no one else wants.... The "Dirty Work" as it were.... So now, if you are collecting grease out of grease traps, you cant expect a HUGE wage because its "dirty work".... Its just fair now... thats all.
    I love when people drink the kool-aid. Both democrats and republicans won't touch it because they will get the votes. I'm sure the people you use are legal, lol. Either way, most illegals are on government aid, food stamps, welfare and housing assistance. People think they are hard workers when almost 77% get government handouts and they don't pay taxes. People would do those jobs and used to at a higher rate. These people have come in and lowered the wage to 5/hr. You can't live on that or pay any rent unless you live like illegals do (10 people in a house). It's sad that they lowered the wage were people can't even take the jobs. It's not a matter of not wanting to do the jobs. When people take those jobs, they then need government handouts too because illegals lowered the wage.

  10. #50
    I think (and hope) you're wrong about "the horse being out of the barn" as far as manufacturing returning to the US..
    I work for a medical manufacturer and we make everything in China... It drives me crazy. I hate that I sell crap from China, but it was the only way for us to make a profit.
    But that is changing every day. The cost of gas has tripled the cost of shipping... Chinese workers know they were making **** $ and demanded way more... They built all brand new high tech factories because the world saw them barefoot in huts.
    It's becoming less cost effective every day build and ship product to the US and I know my company is looking in to manufacturing local. As the the profit margins decrease it becomes more and more tempting to build here and it's happening for all industries.

    Quote Originally Posted by goosemagoo View Post
    Even if they are ONLY selling products from china my post is still valid. It's the circulating of money locally that benefits the whole local economy.

    Even with something like wetsuitwarehouse (I don't know where they're located) when you buy from them your money goes to work in their locality. The employees and owners don't buy from businesses near you so that money is gone from your local economy. Your money is no longer supporting local businesses because their employees aren't supporting your local bar, surf shop, car lot, etc. Every time a dollar is spent someone keeps a little bit of it. The longer that dollar circulates locally the greater the benefit.

    I think the horse is out of the barn as far as the US returning to being a manufacturing leader of the world. That's a shame but we have to make the best of what's been dealt to us.