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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by nynj View Post
    I think (and hope) you're wrong about "the horse being out of the barn" as far as manufacturing returning to the US..
    I hope you're right! It drives me crazy that we import so much from over seas. Especially things that I can't fathom could be cheaper to produce on the other side of the globe then shipped here.

    For example, we had a turkey fry a few months ago and I was looking at the box the fryer came in. Made in china.

    How the hell is it cheaper to stamp an aluminum pot and build a simple stamped metal stand in china.
    Then ship it to an exporter.
    Then load it onto a cargo ship.
    Then transport it across the pacific.
    Then unload it in Calif.
    Then inspect the container.
    Then load it in a truck.
    Then unload it in a warehouse.
    Then load it in another truck.
    Then truck it across country.
    Then unload it at Home Depot.

    Arkansas is our top alum. producer and Pa. is one of the top steel producers in the US. Why can't they do the same thing at a much cheaper cost??? I'm sure someone has an answer but they'll never convince me. Hell, I just ordered 100' of paracord. Cost $10.50. Weeks later I get the package with a f'kin US customs inspection sticker on it.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by goosemagoo View Post
    I hope you're right! It drives me crazy that we import so much from over seas. Especially things that I can't fathom could be cheaper to produce on the other side of the globe then shipped here.

    For example, we had a turkey fry a few months ago and I was looking at the box the fryer came in. Made in china.

    How the hell is it cheaper to stamp an aluminum pot and build a simple stamped metal stand in china.
    Then ship it to an exporter.
    Then load it onto a cargo ship.
    Then transport it across the pacific.
    Then unload it in Calif.
    Then inspect the container.
    Then load it in a truck.
    Then unload it in a warehouse.
    Then load it in another truck.
    Then truck it across country.
    Then unload it at Home Depot.

    Arkansas is our top alum. producer and Pa. is one of the top steel producers in the US. Why can't they do the same thing at a much cheaper cost??? I'm sure someone has an answer but they'll never convince me. Hell, I just ordered 100' of paracord. Cost $10.50. Weeks later I get the package with a f'kin US customs inspection sticker on it.
    It is cheaper because China pays their workers pennies per hour and give no benefits. In the USA, we require minimum pay, plus additional money for skilled laborers, plus medical coverage, plus retirement benefits, plus disability coverage, plus taxes, etc....
    Our better work conditions end up making our workers less competitive in the global market. However, quality seems to suffer once you outsource. My company realized that long ago, and started a local for local business approach. Now, Americans manufacture components to go in American made engines. The only thing brought over from Europe is specific pieces that we aren't currently able to manufacture in the states. The long term plan is to have it all here in one place. Same with our plants in Germany and Brazil. They will make components for their own local markets. From a engineering standpoint, this really improves customer service, delivery timing, and application development. It is sad that all companies don't take this approach. BTW, we took this model from Toyota. It is too bad GM/Ford/Chrysler aren't taking note. I am hoping Fiat will push Chrysler into the local for local thing soon.

  3. #63
    Good info. Finally, something that makes sense.

    Reminds me of something my dad always joked about "Never buy a car or motor assembled the Monday after superbowl. Everyone is hungover. Plus half of them are pissed off."

  4. #64
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    While I agree that many illegals have children on American soil, that then makes the "Child" an american citizen... Does that suck? Yes. Does it bother me? No. I am not opposed to a child being raised in america and becoming a part of our economy and infrastructure.... But that does NOT make their parents "Legal"... The second these illegal children are born, the INS is waiting outside to give the adults the boot. It doesnt work every time, but that is the way the system works. People got deported on a regular in San Diego over this. Its a risk people are willing to take to give their kids a better life.... And these kids dont end up being gang bangers or thieves, they are just children.... So until people are willing to lock up the borders officially, which I am all for, we will always have this problem...

    I am just saying that the kids dont bother me... But everytime one is born, they better run a scan on every person in that hospital room. Im not for illegal immigration at all... But what people dont understand is that almost 50% of the workforce in CA is hispanic, and 90% of them are LEGAL.... so all these JOBS that people have in CA are 100% legit... It is what it is... so, no one can argue that LEGAL mexicans are stealing jobs... They are just in the same rat race as the rest of us... working hard and taking care of their families....

  5. #65
    You are correct about how much they pay their employees and the working conditions... But that is changing (though not fast enough). Workers are demanding more and conditions are improving... The price saving you get is shrinking every day. And as shrinks and shrinks more US businesses will decide it's not worth. Where you used to save $15 per cog now it's $8. When then gets down to $3 or $4 it becomes more of a hassle than benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by brewengineer View Post
    It is cheaper because China pays their workers pennies per hour and give no benefits. In the USA, we require minimum pay, plus additional money for skilled laborers, plus medical coverage, plus retirement benefits, plus disability coverage, plus taxes, etc....
    Our better work conditions end up making our workers less competitive in the global market. However, quality seems to suffer once you outsource. My company realized that long ago, and started a local for local business approach. Now, Americans manufacture components to go in American made engines. The only thing brought over from Europe is specific pieces that we aren't currently able to manufacture in the states. The long term plan is to have it all here in one place. Same with our plants in Germany and Brazil. They will make components for their own local markets. From a engineering standpoint, this really improves customer service, delivery timing, and application development. It is sad that all companies don't take this approach. BTW, we took this model from Toyota. It is too bad GM/Ford/Chrysler aren't taking note. I am hoping Fiat will push Chrysler into the local for local thing soon.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by nynj View Post
    You are correct about how much they pay their employees and the working conditions... But that is changing (though not fast enough). Workers are demanding more and conditions are improving... The price saving you get is shrinking every day. And as shrinks and shrinks more US businesses will decide it's not worth. Where you used to save $15 per cog now it's $8. When then gets down to $3 or $4 it becomes more of a hassle than benefit.
    What's to keep the manufacturing from moving from China to the next low wage mecca? (say in certain African countries for example)

  7. #67
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    Don't buy any steel or automotive parts from China--they suck.

    Having an older 'Cruiser, I do quite a bit of wrenching and have learned the hard way that Chinese-made steel components don't even make very good paper weights.

    But, that leads to the best steel in the World--American. It's also the most expensive and it's not just about labor costs, it's about the entire supply line and regulations more so. You have to have coke to make steel and coke is a product of coal. Iron and coal are products of mining, etc. etc. etc.

    Luckily my OEM parts are made from the second best steel in the world--Japanese. But it's not that cheap either.


    Not only is Chinese labor cheap, they sh!t on their environment as well.
    Last edited by Erock; Mar 7, 2013 at 09:34 PM.

  8. #68
    Hopefully pirates keep us away.

    Quote Originally Posted by oipaul View Post
    What's to keep the manufacturing from moving from China to the next low wage mecca? (say in certain African countries for example)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by oipaul View Post
    What's to keep the manufacturing from moving from China to the next low wage mecca? (say in certain African countries for example)
    Population, education, lack of political stability and infrastructure. Say what you will about a totalitarian communist regime; but a strong central government took China from the 17th century into the 20th in just 50 years.

    Everyone line up against the wall, get a shovel or a bullet, your pick

    Manufacturing is coming back to the states; but it will be a wildly different economic model than the post WWII boom that gave birth to the American middle class. It won't be for the reasons sited above (increasing wages and standard of living in developing countries); but instead because it will be cheaper to do here; because we are leading the world in the tech. There was recently a great WSJ article about it. What's driving the return of manufacturing to the US is automation and I for one want to welcome our new Robot overlords.

    Yep, robots. The Japanese may have the Voltron and sexbot market on lock down, but the US is going gangbusters at building robots that can do the work that is currently being done by 4 year children in Malaysia. You know, screwing the caps on toothpaste tubes or disolving silicon wafers in hydrochloric acid.

    Personally, I see a huge investment opportunity in Soylent green and the black market organ markets.

    "Robohelp is here to Help. BEEEEEEP!"

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erock View Post
    ...the best steel in the World--American. It's also the most expensive...
    Yes it is... and yes it is. Another good case for paying more for domestic.