Your personal experience is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. I run with a guy that is 51, and in the best physical shape of his life. He eats meat, he drinks alcohol, and he mixes in plenty of vegetables. The key to his health has been maintaining an active life. He can run 6 miles in the worst summer heat, and paddle around most 25 y/o guys.
I find it interesting that you will argue to the death one non peer-reviewed study's validity, because it supports your own lifestyle choices. However, evolution has been backed up with hundreds of peer-reviewed studies, and you try to pick every little hole in it that you can find. Maybe you are just looking for anything in this world to validate your own beliefs. Also, since when did you care about science to back up your beliefs? You used to rattle off a dozen conspiracies that had 0 scientific fact to back them up. You are a very odd person, archy.
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Jun 20, 2014, 10:59 AM #151
Jun 20, 2014, 11:06 AM #152
Jun 20, 2014, 01:20 PM #153
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Tinton Falls, New Jersey, United States
Would like to weigh in a bit on the vegan vs meat debate, as I have dug into the subject.
There seams to be a very consistent statement form the health science world recently saying reduction of meat intake will reduce many diseases, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. One could extrapolate this to say that eating zero meat is the best way to go, but I'm not willing to conclude that at this point. Humans have evolved as omnivores, taking advantage of both plant and meats that were available in different locations.
From, everything I have taken in, it seams that there are many different ways to get proper nutrition, whether through solely eating plant based food or mixing in more organic meat based diets. One thing, that seams obvious, is that the meat and dairy foods that are tainted with hormones and antibiotics are not good.
If you look at the healthiest populations in the world, such as the Mediterranean Populations and Japanese, their diets are based on plants and fish, with only small and infrequent meals of meats.
I've tried the vegan diet for about a year, but it didn't stick. These days I try to limit animal product intake, to at the most one meal per day. It can be hard if you eat out a lot, but at the grocery store I buy small amounts of non farmed fish and organic chicken. I try not to eat dairy. Cow's milk is for baby cows.
On a moralistic stand point, we treat our farmed animals so inhumanely it makes me sick. For that reason alone, I think a vegan diet is a noble pursuit. I would vote for more humane regulations on how these farmed animals were treated.
I have no problem with people hunting their food. This is about as organic as it gets. And, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but make sure to do your homework, its your health.
Last edited by SI_Admin; Jun 20, 2014 at 01:24 PM.
Jun 20, 2014, 01:32 PM #154
Either way. Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to know the history behind someone's opinions on a certain topic, when they are obviously strong.
And for the Michael Phelps reference. I am with that. I ran track my entire youth, went to the Junior Olympics twice and played soccer all through college.
My pre-track meet or pre soccer game meal was the same for over 10 years. Plain, boiled noodles, salt and butter. That would keep my on point for a few hours. Had to supliment it at track meets a bit in between events, cause a bowl of pasta won't last for ever. And I know there are gluten free pastas and probably vegan pastas, but aren't all general, store bought pastas off limits for Vegans?
Its things like that that would be a speed bump for me.
And yeah, Slater is notoriously particular about his eating habits for the past 10 years. I follow him on twitter and most of his post are related to some sort of blended, green drink or some strange herb or root that he is into eating. He went card core into his diet, but he does eat meat and fish. I will see the occasional steak dinner tweet and stuff, but generally, he eats tons of grain, vegetables and those weird shakes... I could see myself going down a road more similar to that. Heavy on local, fresh seafood and still eating meat on a somewhat regular basis, just in lesser volume, much lesser often.
See, I was dieting the past couple months, to try and get the bruce lee frame back in order, but I was dieting terribly. I would try and eat a salad for lunch or something, and literally, I was hungry 30 minutes later. So, to keep my carb counts low but have some energy from a non-caffeinated source, I would just eat a piece of beef jerky. High in protein, low carbs. I would be solid for 4-5 hours after a simple piece of beef jerky. Maybe my body is too conditioned to require it, but it is so effective for me... Same with eggs. two hard boiled eggs in the morning, I am solid till lunch with tons of strength and power.
Jun 20, 2014, 01:49 PM #155
But anyway, I think the problem in our country, is volume and population. Free ranges and certain farming conditions are just impossible at this point, to keep up with the demand for CHEAP, meats. The sheer demand and volume for .99 cheese burgers and a a pound of chicken breast for less than $10 is just where we are at as a nation.
Sure, I love buying free range, organic, airline chicken breasts for $14.99 per pound at the local market, but the prices are astronomic in comparison to farmed, slaughterhouse products. Not to mention the fact that organic produce breaks down within about 1 day, every time. Eating this way is only really a viable option for affluent individuals who truly have a passion for this stuff.
With all that being said, one of my employee from a restaurant I ran told me some pretty horrific stories about the slaughterhouses. It was enough to make me think a lot, and feel bad, but I still ate a steak that night...
The worst one she told me, was that this Cow was in line, to take the hammer gun thing to the dome, which was how they would kill the cows before they going in to cut broken down. She said that the live cows always knew whats was going on, because of the terrible noises, and the smells. She said one day, she had to stop the conveyor belt because the next cow in line laid down. She had to jump down on the track with it to try and lift it up. She said that there were tears streaming down both eyes of the cow and it fought and fought.... This story really made me feel bad, for some childish, loss of innocence reason.
But then again, the world is a jacked up place on the other hand, and we all gotta eat. So, if I don't have the time or money to go out and killed cows and bison in the wild and hold their heads in my lap as the drift off into death, I can't really complain about how my burger got to the table...
But I was reminded of that cow story when threads were made a few weeks ago and certain people were claiming that animals don't have emotions and feelings. Every pet I have, or have ever had, has had almost human like emotions.... We are so much more similar than we know.
Jun 20, 2014, 02:39 PM #156
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Tinton Falls, New Jersey, United States
But, have fun trying to convince the meat and dairy industry of that.
Jun 20, 2014, 02:54 PM #157
The only fair way to do things, is to have a few free range ranches in each state, once a month, you get an opportunity to go out to the ranch for 6 hours with a bow and arrow. You buy what you kill, they butcher it for you and you go home. If ya can't kill it, ya don't eat it. Problem solved.
Lucky for me, I love fish and live by the sea, so if I really wanted to, I could move a lot closer to a sustainable diet and life style. Something to consider I suppose.
Jun 20, 2014, 03:49 PM #158
Jun 20, 2014, 08:32 PM #159
Denise Minger's failure understanding the book’s objectives. Denise Minger failed to understand that the findings described in the book are not solely based on the China "survey data". As explained in the book The China Study, it drew conclusions from *several* findings and it is the *consistency* among ALL the various findings that matter. These principles also collectively and substantially inferred major health benefits of whole plant-based foods. Unfortunately, this issue of biological plausibility too often escapes the attention of "statisticians", who are more familiar with 'number crunching' than with actual biological phenomena. Denise Minger addresses only 1 chapter of the China Study book [which] was devoted to the china "survey project", which is only one, in a chain of experimental approaches.
coincidentally denise minger says in her debunk piece that vitamin k2 is not found in plant foods. she shows her incompetence to tackle a nutritional argument here bc the highest sources of food containing vitamin k1 are plant food which the body then converts into k2. she also says you cant get vitamin a from plant foods which is utter bull. plant foods such as carrots contain the most vitamin a in any food source.
if your interested you can find the authors rebuttal to denise where her points out that her failures in critiquing his book. http://nutritionstudies.org/minger-critique/
the reason why the china study is not peer reviewed is because its a book. not a scientific research paper. however all the scientific research papers referenced in the book are peer reviewed.
also dr. campell was committed to the animal food industry and only became a veg until after his research led to believe otherwise.
show me some scientific peer reviewed evidence that animal protein is optimal that isn't biased.
as Micah stated There seams to be a very consistent statement form the health science world recently saying reduction of meat intake will reduce many diseases, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.
do I think vegan is optimal for everyone? no and I never sated it was. its a personal choice.
as far as your 51 yr old friend, howz his blood results? i'm asking bc even though you are in good shape athletically doesn't mean much. I knew a surfing rep from soth Jerzy about 20 years ago. the guy was in his early 50's and much like your friend. ate meat but I don't think he drank. he was a triathlete in excellent shape, travelled and surfed heavy waves etc. while attending a surf expo in Fla he went for his usual morning run and mid run dropped dead of a massive heart attack.
so you can defend your beliefs i'll defend mine. ive told people to check out the china study. ill let them make their own decision.
as far as science and evolution, even evolutionist in-fight and the whole evolution community cannot come into agreement about many things.
also I never said anything against science altogether. and I don't know where you get the whole DOZENs of conspiracy theories? and what conspiracy theory have I brought up that requires peer reviewed science? except maybe the safety and efficacy in vaccines issue. which coincidentally (and this might change this thread altogether) I was shocked to come across this on the FDA's on website. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm127315.htm
Jun 21, 2014, 12:13 AM #160
[QUOTE=zach619;244359] from a moral standpoint, cows that are used for milking, have pretty good lives on most American farms. I don't really feel too bad about the dairy thing.
reality is milk cows live pretty miserable lives. first they are chained to stalls where they never leave, so they never even get a chance to walk around. they're pumped full of recumbent bovine growth hormones to produce milk 24/7. because they are hooked up to milking machines 24 /7 their utters become severely infected requiring copious amounts of antibiotics. the average age of a cow is 25 years and the average of a milk cow in the US is 5 years.
the results of drinking this milk: increased risk of cancer documents.foodandwaterwatch.org/doc/rBGH_Health.pdf
over 30 countries have banned the use of RBGH and Canada and the EU have banned US milk and milk products but the corrupt FDA still allows it.
if you gonna do dairy at least get organic if not raw.