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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach619 View Post
    Gotcha. I have no dog in the fight, I just put my toes in the water and chimed in... Of course there are successful athletes that have become vegans. This is NOT the norm... By that rationale, you would have to run the numbers based on actual vegans. I.E. If 2% of american's are vegans, then you would have to round up every NFL, NBA, MLB player up, give them a questionnaire about their diets and if 2% of those athletes are vegans, then we can continue that discussion. All stats aside, I think you and I both know that the percentage of pro, US athletes that are vegan is not even close to the percentage of normal citizens in this country who are vegan. Not saying it CANT be done. I am just saying it is very uncommon ways, because there are quicker, more effective and efficient ways to provide muscle growth, strength and stability by utilizing meat proteins, suppliments and training. Not saying NO ATHLETES are vegans, I am just saying most athletes are NOT because it is a detriment to their bodies and their training regimes....

    I bet if you polled every Pro surfer that has ever competed on the ASP, I would say, maybe there have been one or two? And with all the "go green" surfing communities nation wide, I think there are a TON of vegans who surf, shape and love surfing, but the pros are not. Pros are about money. And if having strength, stamina and ability is easier to accomplish through meat proteins on a regular, that is what they will all do.

    I just can't imagine eating a bowl of vegetables and paddling out for 5 hours.

    Anyway, just sharing my thoughts. You obviously feel a certain way about this subject, since you have made it a lifestyle, and if that keeps you in good health, great. Whatever works for you.

    I just think that individuals who go down the vegetarian route and then into the Vegan thing, it mostly has to be because of social consciousness. I understand if you feel a certain way about living things and you dont want to be a part of the circle of life and all. I understand the people who stop eating meat because of the first time they went to a slaughter house... I get that... But everyone seems to have to have a reason to oppose this. I don't know any vegans, to date anyway, that don't have some "reason" why they stopped. And once they stop, then it becomes an obsession about keeping COMPLETELY away from these things...

    Like, why can't somebody just choice to not eat meat on a regular. You are a vegan. Its been a few weeks since you had meat. The guys are going out for tacos after a surf session. You feel like you shouldnt eat that chicken taco... There has to be a driving force and a reason for all this..

    Otherwise, people who seek better health would just reduce their meat intake, monitor where they get these products from, or like I said, limit consumption to the fish that you catch or the meat you kill. That is a quick way to cut down your intake... Other than that. I just think Vegans have taken a moral stand at some point or another and feel ethically obligated to see it out....

    Aint nothing wrong with a steak every now and again. Talking about meat has my stomach growling right now...

    With all that being said, maybe I missed it in this thread....

    Why did you become a Vegan, and why are you continuing?
    haha, nice to meet a humble person on here for once.

    I get what you mean about pro athletes. I think a lot of the reason is there is a dogma about protein for power and endurance from athletes coaches and trainers. also I think vegan/vegetarianism has a stigma that youll be skinny, weak, and tired. personally and some experts agree that protein is only part of the equation. and focusing on protein can actually hinder recovery.
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/49...ve-you-energy/
    also there is a misconception about what protein is best and the mind set in this country is we need to eat meat and eggs to get enough protein. Harvard actually suggest plant based proteins as healthy source.
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsle...in-from-plants
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plan...in-preferable/
    and consuming red meat leads to a higher mortality rate http://nutritionfacts.org/video/harv...ality-studies/

    I def hear you about a bowl of veggies and a 5 hour sesh and your right. from what I learned its all about calories. look at Mike Phelps. that dude eats I think something like 12,000 a day when training. veggies alone aint gonna cut it so I carb the fug up. I dont calorie count but my guess is im doin bout 4000 plus a day at least. I stay lean and trim even on days I don't go big in the water or gym etc.

    also I think athletes don't go veg is cuz they like their meat. '
    with pro surfing ive seen a lot of focus on nutrition, and while they haven't adopted a vegetarian diet, I think a lot of them eat high plant based diets. Kelly slater is big into all fruit for breakfast and green smoothies and basically fish and veggies at night. and ive seen some of the trainers incorporating vegan foods like chia seeds into the athletes and fruit smoothies and less egg and bacon type brekies. also a lot of the top pros are watermen and there always at some locale with fresh seafood and they love it.

    as for me, well I started out of high school cooking and almost went to culinary school {surfing put an end to that) so when I actually got full blown serious about surfing and performance I became really interested in nutrition. for years I was on and off vegetarian and started juicing in my mid 20s. so I was always into clean foods. it wasn't till my mid/late 30s that I felt I could eat whatever because my athleticism and fitness were so good.. not saying I indulged but I started eatin burgers and fries on a semi weekly basis and other stuff.
    then when I was 38 I suffered a back injury so severe I never thought I would surf again. turns out I have two vertebrate that are deformed. never knew until the injury. but that explained my back problems throughout my life.
    so after about a year and a half, not fully back near 100% still dealing with back issues, and now depression on top I came across a book written by Jon Joseph from the Cro Mags called 'Meat is for Pussies' while buying tickets for a show of theirs on line. the book sale showed a video of Jon and his vegan lifestyle. I was friggen amazed at how much of an athletic beast he was at 47 yrs of age on a vegan diet.
    I read the book and a lot of it made sense to me. I learned about GMOs and the corruption of the FDA and medical industry and vegan food and fitness.
    I was always a pretty spiritual person, got into yoga in my mid twenties and the book also discussed a spiritual side of eating meat. basically the karmic effect of eating meat that comes from an animal that has suffered or killed prematurely.
    I gave it a shot. it really wasn't hard to change over cuz there are a lot of meat substitutes that are pretty good and it was just a kind of learning curve when shopping. also it opened up a whole new kind of food choice that I was never really aware of. I noticed after about a month that my mental health really improved. then after two months my back pains went away. to this day I have never had one single back pain.(5yrs) I became more and more interested and read some other books by vegan athletes. I aslo saw a few movies that really changed the way I thought about eating meats and animals in general. watch this shyt for an eye opener http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32
    also ive seen some amazing stories of people reversing terminal cancers, reversing heart disease and diabetes through diet that has really inspired me.
    slowly I got off the meat substitutes to a more whole food way of eating and with my culinary background just kinda went to town.

    from what ive experienced and learned the only way ill eat animal foods again is if there are no more plant foods.
    I feel better than ever. im back 110% this time in fitness and health. I recover from long workout faster with little to no muscle soreness. my endurance has increased.

    I don't talk about veganism unless someone's interested i'm not annoying militant like many. I let people be in their choices. and going out to eat isn't really that hard. its harder to go out and eat and avoid GMO chemical crap if anything.

    wel shyt Zach that's bout it thanks for askin

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by archy View Post
    If you had looked at the china study with an open mind instead of searching the interweb trying to debunk it, you would have found out that the book nor the author are in any way biased. If eating a diet containing 50% of calories from non plant base sources works for you and you are able to Marian optimal health than do it. In no way did I ever preach to anyone about what to eat as you accused. If you think my dietary choices are unhealthy then so be it. Truth is I feel better and am healthier with med results to prove than in all my 45 yrs.

    I agree life is about balance and I've found my balance that's right for me.

    Like I said you do you and Ill do me.
    I found an author who admits to being a vegetarian for well over a decade. The same author that would not put his study up for peer review. I have an open mind, but that mind is for science. This study is mere hypothesis, and not verified. That makes it incomplete, and in need of further research. Also, it should have been peer reviewed, I can not stress that enough. Writing a book, for profit, makes it sketchy science at best. You better have more than observational data, if you are going to make claims about meat causing cancer or disease. A thorough scientist would have taken the observational data, and gone back to design some experiments to try and see why this happens.
    Your personal experience is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. I run with a guy that is 51, and in the best physical shape of his life. He eats meat, he drinks alcohol, and he mixes in plenty of vegetables. The key to his health has been maintaining an active life. He can run 6 miles in the worst summer heat, and paddle around most 25 y/o guys.

    I find it interesting that you will argue to the death one non peer-reviewed study's validity, because it supports your own lifestyle choices. However, evolution has been backed up with hundreds of peer-reviewed studies, and you try to pick every little hole in it that you can find. Maybe you are just looking for anything in this world to validate your own beliefs. Also, since when did you care about science to back up your beliefs? You used to rattle off a dozen conspiracies that had 0 scientific fact to back them up. You are a very odd person, archy.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by leetymike808 View Post
    I eat meat, mostly chicken. I also try to buy as local and organic as possible. But im poor and lazy when it comes to feeding myself so im no stickler to any one diet.

    I always tend to say as long as its in moderation nothing is all that bad for you. Just dont over-indulge.
    Bingo. I am guessing that if you dig down into the diets of anyone in these studies we have been discussing, the over-indulgence factor would be key. Your normal human omnivore probably overindulges quite a bit. You can see it in the obesity rates throughout the world (more so in USA). People eat too much, and don't exercise enough.

  4. #154
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    Would like to weigh in a bit on the vegan vs meat debate, as I have dug into the subject.

    There seams to be a very consistent statement form the health science world recently saying reduction of meat intake will reduce many diseases, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. One could extrapolate this to say that eating zero meat is the best way to go, but I'm not willing to conclude that at this point. Humans have evolved as omnivores, taking advantage of both plant and meats that were available in different locations.

    From, everything I have taken in, it seams that there are many different ways to get proper nutrition, whether through solely eating plant based food or mixing in more organic meat based diets. One thing, that seams obvious, is that the meat and dairy foods that are tainted with hormones and antibiotics are not good.

    If you look at the healthiest populations in the world, such as the Mediterranean Populations and Japanese, their diets are based on plants and fish, with only small and infrequent meals of meats.

    I've tried the vegan diet for about a year, but it didn't stick. These days I try to limit animal product intake, to at the most one meal per day. It can be hard if you eat out a lot, but at the grocery store I buy small amounts of non farmed fish and organic chicken. I try not to eat dairy. Cow's milk is for baby cows.

    On a moralistic stand point, we treat our farmed animals so inhumanely it makes me sick. For that reason alone, I think a vegan diet is a noble pursuit. I would vote for more humane regulations on how these farmed animals were treated.

    I have no problem with people hunting their food. This is about as organic as it gets. And, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but make sure to do your homework, its your health.
    Last edited by SI_Admin; Jun 20, 2014 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by archy View Post
    haha, nice to meet a humble person on here for once.

    I get what you mean about pro athletes. I think a lot of the reason is there is a dogma about protein for power and endurance from athletes coaches and trainers. also I think vegan/vegetarianism has a stigma that youll be skinny, weak, and tired. personally and some experts agree that protein is only part of the equation. and focusing on protein can actually hinder recovery.
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/49...ve-you-energy/
    also there is a misconception about what protein is best and the mind set in this country is we need to eat meat and eggs to get enough protein. Harvard actually suggest plant based proteins as healthy source.
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsle...in-from-plants
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plan...in-preferable/
    and consuming red meat leads to a higher mortality rate http://nutritionfacts.org/video/harv...ality-studies/

    I def hear you about a bowl of veggies and a 5 hour sesh and your right. from what I learned its all about calories. look at Mike Phelps. that dude eats I think something like 12,000 a day when training. veggies alone aint gonna cut it so I carb the fug up. I dont calorie count but my guess is im doin bout 4000 plus a day at least. I stay lean and trim even on days I don't go big in the water or gym etc.

    also I think athletes don't go veg is cuz they like their meat. '
    with pro surfing ive seen a lot of focus on nutrition, and while they haven't adopted a vegetarian diet, I think a lot of them eat high plant based diets. Kelly slater is big into all fruit for breakfast and green smoothies and basically fish and veggies at night. and ive seen some of the trainers incorporating vegan foods like chia seeds into the athletes and fruit smoothies and less egg and bacon type brekies. also a lot of the top pros are watermen and there always at some locale with fresh seafood and they love it.

    as for me, well I started out of high school cooking and almost went to culinary school {surfing put an end to that) so when I actually got full blown serious about surfing and performance I became really interested in nutrition. for years I was on and off vegetarian and started juicing in my mid 20s. so I was always into clean foods. it wasn't till my mid/late 30s that I felt I could eat whatever because my athleticism and fitness were so good.. not saying I indulged but I started eatin burgers and fries on a semi weekly basis and other stuff.
    then when I was 38 I suffered a back injury so severe I never thought I would surf again. turns out I have two vertebrate that are deformed. never knew until the injury. but that explained my back problems throughout my life.
    so after about a year and a half, not fully back near 100% still dealing with back issues, and now depression on top I came across a book written by Jon Joseph from the Cro Mags called 'Meat is for Pussies' while buying tickets for a show of theirs on line. the book sale showed a video of Jon and his vegan lifestyle. I was friggen amazed at how much of an athletic beast he was at 47 yrs of age on a vegan diet.
    I read the book and a lot of it made sense to me. I learned about GMOs and the corruption of the FDA and medical industry and vegan food and fitness.
    I was always a pretty spiritual person, got into yoga in my mid twenties and the book also discussed a spiritual side of eating meat. basically the karmic effect of eating meat that comes from an animal that has suffered or killed prematurely.
    I gave it a shot. it really wasn't hard to change over cuz there are a lot of meat substitutes that are pretty good and it was just a kind of learning curve when shopping. also it opened up a whole new kind of food choice that I was never really aware of. I noticed after about a month that my mental health really improved. then after two months my back pains went away. to this day I have never had one single back pain.(5yrs) I became more and more interested and read some other books by vegan athletes. I aslo saw a few movies that really changed the way I thought about eating meats and animals in general. watch this shyt for an eye opener http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32
    also ive seen some amazing stories of people reversing terminal cancers, reversing heart disease and diabetes through diet that has really inspired me.
    slowly I got off the meat substitutes to a more whole food way of eating and with my culinary background just kinda went to town.

    from what ive experienced and learned the only way ill eat animal foods again is if there are no more plant foods.
    I feel better than ever. im back 110% this time in fitness and health. I recover from long workout faster with little to no muscle soreness. my endurance has increased.

    I don't talk about veganism unless someone's interested i'm not annoying militant like many. I let people be in their choices. and going out to eat isn't really that hard. its harder to go out and eat and avoid GMO chemical crap if anything.

    wel shyt Zach that's bout it thanks for askin
    Dang, interesting stuff. Sounds like it all works out very well for you. Must also help to have a culinary background. Again, I am locked in a certain paradigm about meat/food anyway, as it has been in my diet for my entire life. I guess it just takes time to slowly break your mind out of it's box with regards to cravings and overall food consumption. I love to cook, my wife has a culinary degree, I just can't imagine life without meat. My mind and body are so dialed into the meat, that I usually get some sort of signal from my body if I consumer a meal without meat. Its like, "Zach, whats the deal bro? Was that just an appetizer? Whats with all the lettuce". But again, if weened off of it, and introduced different proteins and alternatives, I am sure it can be done efficiently.

    Either way. Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to know the history behind someone's opinions on a certain topic, when they are obviously strong.

    And for the Michael Phelps reference. I am with that. I ran track my entire youth, went to the Junior Olympics twice and played soccer all through college.

    My pre-track meet or pre soccer game meal was the same for over 10 years. Plain, boiled noodles, salt and butter. That would keep my on point for a few hours. Had to supliment it at track meets a bit in between events, cause a bowl of pasta won't last for ever. And I know there are gluten free pastas and probably vegan pastas, but aren't all general, store bought pastas off limits for Vegans?

    Its things like that that would be a speed bump for me.

    And yeah, Slater is notoriously particular about his eating habits for the past 10 years. I follow him on twitter and most of his post are related to some sort of blended, green drink or some strange herb or root that he is into eating. He went card core into his diet, but he does eat meat and fish. I will see the occasional steak dinner tweet and stuff, but generally, he eats tons of grain, vegetables and those weird shakes... I could see myself going down a road more similar to that. Heavy on local, fresh seafood and still eating meat on a somewhat regular basis, just in lesser volume, much lesser often.

    See, I was dieting the past couple months, to try and get the bruce lee frame back in order, but I was dieting terribly. I would try and eat a salad for lunch or something, and literally, I was hungry 30 minutes later. So, to keep my carb counts low but have some energy from a non-caffeinated source, I would just eat a piece of beef jerky. High in protein, low carbs. I would be solid for 4-5 hours after a simple piece of beef jerky. Maybe my body is too conditioned to require it, but it is so effective for me... Same with eggs. two hard boiled eggs in the morning, I am solid till lunch with tons of strength and power.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by SI_Admin View Post
    Would like to weigh in a bit on the vegan vs meat debate, as I have dug into the subject.

    There seams to be a very consistent statement form the health science world recently saying reduction of meat intake will reduce many diseases, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. One could extrapolate this to say that eating zero meat is the best way to go, but I'm not willing to conclude that at this point. Humans have evolved as omnivores, taking advantage of both plant and meats that were available in different locations.

    From, everything I have taken in, it seams that there are many different ways to get proper nutrition, whether through solely eating plant based food or mixing in more organic meat based diets. One thing, that seams obvious, is that the meat and dairy foods that are tainted with hormones and antibiotics are not good.

    If you look at the healthiest populations in the world, such as the Mediterranean Populations and Japanese, their diets are based on plants and fish, with only small and infrequent meals of meats.

    I've tried the vegan diet for about a year, but it didn't stick. These days I try to limit animal product intake, to at the most one meal per day. It can be hard if you eat out a lot, but at the grocery store I buy small amounts of non farmed fish and organic chicken. I try not to eat dairy. Cow's milk is for baby cows.

    On a moralistic stand point, we treat our farmed animals so inhumanely it makes me sick. For that reason alone, I think a vegan diet is a noble pursuit. I would vote for more humane regulations on how these farmed animals were treated.

    I have no problem with people hunting their food. This is about as organic as it gets. And, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but make sure to do your homework, its your health.
    I don't think anyone could disagree with you. Those are all valid statements and logical conclusions. I think the non-dairy part would be tough for me. I am a sucker for cheese. I don't drink a lot of straight milk, but I put cream in the coffee and use milk and cheese basically every day. That would be a tough thing to kick for me. And I understand that we are ONE of the few species that would drink another species milk, but it just tastes so darn good and from a moral standpoint, cows that are used for milking, have pretty good lives on most American farms. I don't really feel too bad about the dairy thing. I could see where "eggs" could get into a moral grey area.

    But anyway, I think the problem in our country, is volume and population. Free ranges and certain farming conditions are just impossible at this point, to keep up with the demand for CHEAP, meats. The sheer demand and volume for .99 cheese burgers and a a pound of chicken breast for less than $10 is just where we are at as a nation.

    Sure, I love buying free range, organic, airline chicken breasts for $14.99 per pound at the local market, but the prices are astronomic in comparison to farmed, slaughterhouse products. Not to mention the fact that organic produce breaks down within about 1 day, every time. Eating this way is only really a viable option for affluent individuals who truly have a passion for this stuff.

    With all that being said, one of my employee from a restaurant I ran told me some pretty horrific stories about the slaughterhouses. It was enough to make me think a lot, and feel bad, but I still ate a steak that night...

    The worst one she told me, was that this Cow was in line, to take the hammer gun thing to the dome, which was how they would kill the cows before they going in to cut broken down. She said that the live cows always knew whats was going on, because of the terrible noises, and the smells. She said one day, she had to stop the conveyor belt because the next cow in line laid down. She had to jump down on the track with it to try and lift it up. She said that there were tears streaming down both eyes of the cow and it fought and fought.... This story really made me feel bad, for some childish, loss of innocence reason.

    But then again, the world is a jacked up place on the other hand, and we all gotta eat. So, if I don't have the time or money to go out and killed cows and bison in the wild and hold their heads in my lap as the drift off into death, I can't really complain about how my burger got to the table...

    But I was reminded of that cow story when threads were made a few weeks ago and certain people were claiming that animals don't have emotions and feelings. Every pet I have, or have ever had, has had almost human like emotions.... We are so much more similar than we know.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach619 View Post
    I don't think anyone could disagree with you. Those are all valid statements and logical conclusions. I think the non-dairy part would be tough for me. I am a sucker for cheese. I don't drink a lot of straight milk, but I put cream in the coffee and use milk and cheese basically every day. That would be a tough thing to kick for me. And I understand that we are ONE of the few species that would drink another species milk, but it just tastes so darn good and from a moral standpoint, cows that are used for milking, have pretty good lives on most American farms. I don't really feel too bad about the dairy thing. I could see where "eggs" could get into a moral grey area.

    But anyway, I think the problem in our country, is volume and population. Free ranges and certain farming conditions are just impossible at this point, to keep up with the demand for CHEAP, meats. The sheer demand and volume for .99 cheese burgers and a a pound of chicken breast for less than $10 is just where we are at as a nation.

    Sure, I love buying free range, organic, airline chicken breasts for $14.99 per pound at the local market, but the prices are astronomic in comparison to farmed, slaughterhouse products. Not to mention the fact that organic produce breaks down within about 1 day, every time. Eating this way is only really a viable option for affluent individuals who truly have a passion for this stuff.

    With all that being said, one of my employee from a restaurant I ran told me some pretty horrific stories about the slaughterhouses. It was enough to make me think a lot, and feel bad, but I still ate a steak that night...

    The worst one she told me, was that this Cow was in line, to take the hammer gun thing to the dome, which was how they would kill the cows before they going in to cut broken down. She said that the live cows always knew whats was going on, because of the terrible noises, and the smells. She said one day, she had to stop the conveyor belt because the next cow in line laid down. She had to jump down on the track with it to try and lift it up. She said that there were tears streaming down both eyes of the cow and it fought and fought.... This story really made me feel bad, for some childish, loss of innocence reason.

    But then again, the world is a jacked up place on the other hand, and we all gotta eat. So, if I don't have the time or money to go out and killed cows and bison in the wild and hold their heads in my lap as the drift off into death, I can't really complain about how my burger got to the table...

    But I was reminded of that cow story when threads were made a few weeks ago and certain people were claiming that animals don't have emotions and feelings. Every pet I have, or have ever had, has had almost human like emotions.... We are so much more similar than we know.
    From a sustainability stand point, there is a lot to be said for moving the world off their meat addictions. Most of the plant based farming, is just done just to feed the farmed animals. If we just eat the plant food directly, instead of feeding the animals, and then eating the animals, we save a lot of resources and we get the nutrients more directly from the source.

    But, have fun trying to convince the meat and dairy industry of that.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by SI_Admin View Post
    From a sustainability stand point, there is a lot to be said for moving the world off their meat addictions. Most of the plant based farming, is just done just to feed the farmed animals. If we just eat the plant food directly, instead of feeding the animals, and then eating the animals, we save a lot of resources and we get the nutrients more directly from the source.

    But, have fun trying to convince the meat and dairy industry of that.
    Yeah, but don't we feed them terrible food anyway? Don't we just stuff them with corn by product so they get nice and fat before we kill them?

    The only fair way to do things, is to have a few free range ranches in each state, once a month, you get an opportunity to go out to the ranch for 6 hours with a bow and arrow. You buy what you kill, they butcher it for you and you go home. If ya can't kill it, ya don't eat it. Problem solved.

    Lucky for me, I love fish and live by the sea, so if I really wanted to, I could move a lot closer to a sustainable diet and life style. Something to consider I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SI_Admin View Post
    From a sustainability stand point, there is a lot to be said for moving the world off their meat addictions. Most of the plant based farming, is just done just to feed the farmed animals. If we just eat the plant food directly, instead of feeding the animals, and then eating the animals, we save a lot of resources and we get the nutrients more directly from the source.

    But, have fun trying to convince the meat and dairy industry of that.
    You and I are on the same wavelength here. Eat less, eat better, maintain a balance. Also, there are many of us out there trying to push for traditional farming methods. I try to buy as much free range meat as I can. Honestly, I have found the meat to taste way better anyway. You haven't lived until you have tried pork chops from a heritage breed, raised to forage naturally around fruit and nut trees. The same goes for beef raised to eat pasture grass, barley, and wheat. The main issue is that we have more people in this world than we can cheaply feed. It costs more to farm using these methods. The meat has become more of a luxury item, which is pretty sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brewengineer View Post
    I found an author who admits to being a vegetarian for well over a decade. The same author that would not put his study up for peer review. I have an open mind, but that mind is for science. This study is mere hypothesis, and not verified. That makes it incomplete, and in need of further research. Also, it should have been peer reviewed, I can not stress that enough. Writing a book, for profit, makes it sketchy science at best. You better have more than observational data, if you are going to make claims about meat causing cancer or disease. A thorough scientist would have taken the observational data, and gone back to design some experiments to try and see why this happens.
    Your personal experience is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. I run with a guy that is 51, and in the best physical shape of his life. He eats meat, he drinks alcohol, and he mixes in plenty of vegetables. The key to his health has been maintaining an active life. He can run 6 miles in the worst summer heat, and paddle around most 25 y/o guys.

    I find it interesting that you will argue to the death one non peer-reviewed study's validity, because it supports your own lifestyle choices. However, evolution has been backed up with hundreds of peer-reviewed studies, and you try to pick every little hole in it that you can find. Maybe you are just looking for anything in this world to validate your own beliefs. Also, since when did you care about science to back up your beliefs? You used to rattle off a dozen conspiracies that had 0 scientific fact to back them up. You are a very odd person, archy.
    I agree that you will find holes in the book if you cherry pick one small part of the book as denise minger has.

    Denise Minger's failure understanding the book’s objectives. Denise Minger failed to understand that the findings described in the book are not solely based on the China "survey data". As explained in the book The China Study, it drew conclusions from *several* findings and it is the *consistency* among ALL the various findings that matter. These principles also collectively and substantially inferred major health benefits of whole plant-based foods. Unfortunately, this issue of biological plausibility too often escapes the attention of "statisticians", who are more familiar with 'number crunching' than with actual biological phenomena. Denise Minger addresses only 1 chapter of the China Study book [which] was devoted to the china "survey project", which is only one, in a chain of experimental approaches.

    coincidentally denise minger says in her debunk piece that vitamin k2 is not found in plant foods. she shows her incompetence to tackle a nutritional argument here bc the highest sources of food containing vitamin k1 are plant food which the body then converts into k2. she also says you cant get vitamin a from plant foods which is utter bull. plant foods such as carrots contain the most vitamin a in any food source.

    if your interested you can find the authors rebuttal to denise where her points out that her failures in critiquing his book. http://nutritionstudies.org/minger-critique/

    the reason why the china study is not peer reviewed is because its a book. not a scientific research paper. however all the scientific research papers referenced in the book are peer reviewed.

    also dr. campell was committed to the animal food industry and only became a veg until after his research led to believe otherwise.

    show me some scientific peer reviewed evidence that animal protein is optimal that isn't biased.

    as Micah stated There seams to be a very consistent statement form the health science world recently saying reduction of meat intake will reduce many diseases, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

    do I think vegan is optimal for everyone? no and I never sated it was. its a personal choice.

    as far as your 51 yr old friend, howz his blood results? i'm asking bc even though you are in good shape athletically doesn't mean much. I knew a surfing rep from soth Jerzy about 20 years ago. the guy was in his early 50's and much like your friend. ate meat but I don't think he drank. he was a triathlete in excellent shape, travelled and surfed heavy waves etc. while attending a surf expo in Fla he went for his usual morning run and mid run dropped dead of a massive heart attack.

    so you can defend your beliefs i'll defend mine. ive told people to check out the china study. ill let them make their own decision.

    as far as science and evolution, even evolutionist in-fight and the whole evolution community cannot come into agreement about many things.

    also I never said anything against science altogether. and I don't know where you get the whole DOZENs of conspiracy theories? and what conspiracy theory have I brought up that requires peer reviewed science? except maybe the safety and efficacy in vaccines issue. which coincidentally (and this might change this thread altogether) I was shocked to come across this on the FDA's on website. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm127315.htm