Wow Emass,You should really got some more sleep.Peyton or Brady.Ginger or Mary Ann?Both are great.There is only one position in the Nfl where you can say this guy was the best of all timeand that would be Jerr Rice.All other discussions are debatable.
Did you put Marino in the same sentence as Super Bowl winners? He peaked two years into pro football and had a long drop off. Three, he's got way too many picks. Brady is throwing Ione-third or less than Marino did. Going the better part of seasons sometimes without a pick. Marino - AboIve average career and typical season passer rating, not even close to Manning. Marino (who I really liked despite being on a rival) has slightly better stats but is in the same category of Kosar and Kelly (who went to 4 SBs). Couldn't rush for his life. Elway finally won it all after living at the SB and was always a big game and crunch time player. His stats are average though. He just had longevity and overall success and was a master of the 2-minute drill. Elway and Kelly are ahead of Marino just on SB experience.
I respect Peyton. Always have. Even though the Colts were a huge Pats rival. McGinest stopping them 4 times in a row from the goal line. Awesome. Peyton's regular season stats are amazing. Best ever. But let's look at playoffs?! Manning was one and done (no wins) in the playoffs in 2 of his 4 MVP seasons.
Brady: 17W-7L, 6 GW drives, 3W-2L in Super Bowls, 3 Super Bowl MVPs, 42D, 22INTs
Manning: 9W-11L, 1 GW drive, 1W-1L in Super Bowls, 1 Super Bowl MVP, 32TDs, 21INTs
They both have very similar yardage (B-5,949, M-5,679) and completion percentage (B-62.3, M-63.2).
Brady is two slight letdowns away from 5 SB titles. Manning lost his other decisively. Add to that 2 out of the last 3 years the Pats fell short in playoff upsets after dominating the AFC all season. They have been atop the food chain throughout Brady's career. Sure, Cassell stepped in and had a good season when Brady was hurt. If it were Brady's stats that Cassell put up that year, it would be Brady's 8th best season. Cassell's season was good, not great. They didn't make the playoffs. It was one of only two good seasons that Cassell ever had and he's now a terrible QB. But he did come up huge for the Pats in Brady's absence. They didn't make the playoffs though, so how's that not missing a beat?
In the seasons each player was hurt, the Patriots defense ranked 8th in points allowed while the Colts ranked 28th. Let's consider that just a bit. Not to mention, the three QBs that stepped in for Manning were awful that season and the offense was in the bottom 5 in the league I believe in points and yardage. We really can't use their absence as an indicator of what they mean to their teams when the remaining players that actually played those seasons fared so differently between the two.
Brady is 9-4 vs Manning head-to-head. Brady is 136-39 (78%) in the regular season to Manning's 154-70 (69%). Brady 17-7 (71%) in playoffs to Manning's 9-11 (45%).
How much other compelling info do you want?
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Thread: Official NFL Thread
Jul 7, 2013, 11:45 AM #321
Last edited by GoodVibes; Jul 7, 2013 at 11:57 AM. Reason: tying with a Droid
Jul 7, 2013, 03:13 PM #322
Tom Brady: 63.7% completion percentage, 44,806 yards, 334 TDs, 123 INTs, 23 fourth quarter comebacks and 37 game winning drives.
Peton Manning: 65.2% completion percentage, 59,487 yards, 436 TDs, 209 INTs, 38 fourth quarter comebacks and 49 game winning drives.
Tom was fortunate to start off his career with one of the best Patriot defenses ever, which has continued to be a relatively strong force in the league. Manning hasn't been blessed with a strong defense until arriving in Denver. Year after year, Brady gets to work behind a top-5 caliber offensive line, while Manning worked behind Jeff Saturday and that's about it. Think about all the stud wide outs that Tom has worked with. Now, think about all the stud wide outs that Peyton has worked with. Post season stats? Personally, post season stats measures the team more than a specific player. Take a look at AP - will his mediocre post season stats tarnish his amazing season(s)? No, because we all know AP is stuck on a crap team that only made the playoffs because of purple Jesus' talents.
Aside from rings and post season statistics, the only thing Tom has on Peyton is Giselle and you really can't argue with that.
Jul 7, 2013, 03:19 PM #323
Jul 7, 2013, 04:31 PM #324
And again. You take Brady out of the equation and they are still a play off team. Take Peyton out and they are bottom of the league.
You say Brady is at the peak of his career. And yet he has not won a Super Bowl since 05. But then you use Super Bowl's as the standard to grade QB's? I'd say Bray peaked 02-05 and dropped off since.
You use certain stats when they help you, but ignore then when they don't. Stats don't tell the whole story in football. If they did, you would say nothing about your boy Tebow except that he's the worst QB ever.
Jul 7, 2013, 04:52 PM #325
Jul 8, 2013, 03:58 AM #326
Montana's receiving corps was unreal, AND he had Craig coming out of the backfield for flares.
Jul 8, 2013, 06:06 AM #327
You guys have to decide what the rubric is here for this designation of top QB. Is it regular season stats? Value to team? Super Bowls? Playoff performance? Head to head?
Aside from rings and post season statistics, the only thing Tom has on Peyton is Giselle and you really can't argue with that. - I'll take Bridget Moynahan over Giselle any day. You can have her.
Personally, post season stats measures the team more than a specific player.
- Yeah, this really has no value other than being your own opinion. So regular season wins are all about the individual? If anything, your "go-to guys" stepping up is far more critical in the post-season. If the plays aren't made, you don't survive and you're on vacation playing golf.
You use certain stats when they help you, but ignore then when they don't.
- Not true. I've pulled out just about all the stats in existence in both players' careers by the end of this post. Full disclosure, brah.
Stats don't tell the whole story in football. - 100% correct. Wins do. Brady has a far better winning percentage in the regular season, blows away Manning's post-season record and also has the most playoff wins in history, as well as having more than 2x as many head-to-head wins. "We sure are glad we drafted this guy 1st overall and that he's got the best regular season stats ever. Who cares that he's been sub-par in the post-season?" - said no GM/head coach/owner ever.
Take Brady out of the equation and they are still a playoff team. - the one season he was out of the equation they did not make the playoffs. As for speculation if it happens again? Let's avoid armchair assumption and stick to verifiable facts as there's over a decade of them for each player.
Brady peaked 02-05 and has dropped off since. - Wow. So the arguable "best season in history" in 2007 is an indicator of a sharp drop off. Brady's 5 best stat years have been his last 5 seasons. Manning had a superb comeback in 2012 and I was very pleased to see it. However, statisticians would content that Manning had his best years 2004-06 and has experienced a steady decline since (not incl. last season).
REGULAR SEASON COMPARISON (since Peyton's regular season performance was so emphasized in the rebuttals of my posts and Brady's most-ever postseason wins aren't that notable)
Who are these superstar receivers that Brady has been gifted with? Moss was with Brady for just 3 years, having one amazing year and two great years. He was already a veteran superstar upon arrival in NE.
Deion Branch left NE in the middle of his prime and never had a season for Seattle like his first few in NE. Brady made him great. In his 2007 banner season, he had only one receiver returning from the previous year (Gaffney - 11 catches for 142 yards in '06). He got Moss, yes, but turned Welker into a 3x NFL receptions leader and perhaps a HOF player, doubling his catches & yards from the year before in his first Patriot season. Brady went 17-2 winning the SB in the 2004 season when his leading receiver had 56 catches. Brady had one receiver with one 1,000-yard season (Brown in 2001) before Moss/Welker arrived in 2007. In 2010, Welker was the leading receiver (by far) with 848 yards yet Brady had a rating of 111.0 with 36 TD a mere 4 INT. C'mon.
Has Manning had to put up with new receivers every couple years? Not with Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne who were with Manning for years & stayed healthy. Each went I believe 8+ years missing 0 or 1 game per season. Manning threw to the same two primary targets for nearly a decade when Brady had to manufacture receivers from nothing in most cases and then keep getting new guys unfamiliar with his system. The turnover at all positions in the NE Patriots system from year to year is astounding. Manning never had to deal with that. Brady's OL, WR, and RB help has been a revolving door his whole career.
Running game support
Brady's had a 1,000-yard rusher only 4 seasons of 12. Manning? 11 seasons of 14 having a 1,000-yard rusher. No doubt a running back does well with a passing threat taking snaps, but it cuts both ways. How's that play-action coverage from the defense looking deep on 3rd and short when you have a guy busting loose for 1,300-1,500 yard seasons? How about 2nd and short from the shotgun? Does the defense want to keep conceding first downs on dive plays until they yield a TD instead of foregoing the deep coverage to stop the rush?
Offensive line support
Who composes this so-called amazing offensive line for Brady? His OL has ALWAYS been hurt. When your 3rd left tackle is protecting your blindside, you're going to tend to hurry the pass. Brady has been sacked 303 times in 177 games, and Manning 252 times in 224 games. They're equally mediocre rushers although they've both improved steadily in that area.
On to defense...
Only 3 seasons has Manning's offense had greater Time-of-Possession than Brady's. Several of those years it was by a landslide towards the way of the Patriots. When your defense is on the field for far less plays and far less time, how do you think they'll play? Keep in mind that the Pats D personnel has also been a revolving door throughout Brady's career.
Next? THE DOME FACTOR (half of Manning's career games have been indoors in "perfect weather")
Not including the 2013 season, Manning's monthly record outdoors:
His winning percentage outdoors is .649, but it drops each month, according to the Elias Sports Bureau -- .700 in September, .680 in October, .655 in November and .565 in December/January (13-10, including 0-3 in January).
Imagine paddling in winter water for a few minutes at a time without gloves. How good would your paddling be? How well could you move your hands? The how about 70 degree water (temp in a dome)? QB's don't want to wear a glove so all they have is blowing warm air on their hands and putting them in the waist cuff between plays. There is no rain, no wind, and no cold in a dome. Forget hands and ball flight, how is footing in a dome compared to slippery grass or divots? How about hitting the cold, frozen ground on a sack or knockdown?
Don't start with the fact that his 2012 season in Denver was among his best ever. Most all of his games were in great to perfect weather in Denver compared to poor weather (1 cold, 2 windy). In 31 career games in the wind, his QBR is 83.5, with 44 TDs vs. 32 INTs. HE'S ONLY PLAYED 13 GAMES IN THE COLD. In only 8 career games in precipitation, his rating is 83.8 with 11 TD and 10 INT. Brady in precipitation? 15 games, 93.1 rating, over 4,000 yards, 21 TD and only 7 INT. Imagine playing a full season in precipitation and putting up those stats. Official NFL stats show that Tom Brady's career rating is 96.6. Windy game QBR? In 63 games, 98.4, not to mention 123 TD and only 36 INT. Cold games for Brady? 41 games, 95.1, 74 TD, 24 INT (Shown here: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/...ts?year=career).
Brady's never had a bad regular season. Brady won a Super Bowl his "rookie" year (1 game and 3 passing attempts played the previous year). Manning's rookie year was terrible. 71.2 rating and 28 INTs to 26 TDs. Despite having a 1,100+ yard rusher in 2001, Manning's 23 INT to 26 TD did not help the Colts' 6-10 record. He was 3-13 in that awful rookie season. Brady has never had a losing season. Brady is 136-39 and Manning is 154-70 in the regular season. Brady wins and has always done so consistently. He doesn't have bad games and very seldom makes errors.
You don't want to talk about 17-7 in the post-season vs. 9-11 and 3 Super Bowl wins (5 appearances) to 1 win (2 app.)? Ok, we won't. We also won't talk about the 9-4 head-to-head advantage that Brady has vs. Manning. We stuck to the all-important regular season in the very factual post above, all because you said we needed to.
Last edited by EmassSpicoli; Jul 8, 2013 at 06:48 AM.
Jul 8, 2013, 06:12 AM #328
Jul 8, 2013, 11:43 AM #329
Emass,Denver is the only team that has a winning record against Brady.They travel to New England again this year.That should be one fun game to watch with Wes coming back.Talk about ratings and a storyline.As for post season stats then,where would you put someone like Walter Payton because he only has 1 ring or Jim Brown and Barry Sanders.Is Terry Bradshaw better then Brady because he has 4 rings ?
Last edited by GoodVibes; Jul 8, 2013 at 12:02 PM.
Jul 8, 2013, 12:30 PM #330
The New England Patriots have not won a Super Bowl since 2004.
Now, I would like to conclude this post with following quotes:
"If you ain't first, you're last" (Ricky Bobby)
"There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game and that is first place" (Vince Lombardi)
You will never see a Ricky Bobby quote paired up with a Vince Lombardi quote again. On the same note, you will never see a person pick Bridget over Giselle again.