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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by capesurfer View Post
    believing or not believing in global warming/climate change is your own decision. But please, do not give false information. Climate change is an irrevocable fact at this point. I don't know what scientist's research you people are reading that leads you to believe that 'most' scientists do not believe in climate change, but it is actually quite the reverse, with almost unanimous agreement that this is occurring.

    Furthermore, as far as CO2 emissions is concerned, as ocean appreciators and users we should be EXTREMELY concerned. Over the summer I was tuned into some of the research being done by NOAA and it turns out that a high percentage of CO2 released into the atmosphere is actually absorbed by the ocean. How does that affect us? Acidification. In the ocean there is a limited amount of CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) and it is absolutely crucial for the food cycle/life cycles at one of the lowest levels (shellfish). As acidity increases in our oceans it will become harder for calcium needing lifeforms to survive. I don't profess to be an expert on this, nor do I have all the facts that I wish I could spout out (like i wish i could say 33% or 1/3 of all carbon emissions ends up absorbed by the ocean, but my memory is just not reliable...as such, check out the actual facts.)

    if you don't 'trust' wikipedia please click the links to the research.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ocean_acidification

    http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/PDF/feel2899/feel2899.pdf

    just search for 'co2 in our oceans' or 'ocean acidification' or anything relevant to that for more information.

    Honestly people, for this day and age it is socially irresponsible to continue an arrogant and ignorant attitude towards these issues rather than open-mindedness and concern. I'm not saying you have to buy into Al Gore or anything that extreme, but climate change is an irrefutable fact.

    A large part of misunderstanding/doubt is partially from the influence of propaganda (which also influences the other side, the extremists with their own propaganda) but also a serious problem in comprehension of the human mind. It is an insight that came slowly to me, and continues to amaze me: the shear AMOUNT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. It may seem quite basic, but think about it - think about how many people are in this world compared to 1900...1800. Think about all the technology that started coming about in the turn of the century 1890-1900, and how rapidly we have taken off technologically. All of these technologies are post-steam (which was of course, coal-powered) and have been fossil fuel powered, only now are we seeing a mainstream shift (slow and steady). That means for over 100 years we have completely shifted to consuming mass amounts of fuels to power our lives. We live at a time wholly different from any other time in HISTORY.

    Here's an exercise: go out to any major road and just watch traffic for 30 minutes. This is especially useful around rush hour. I did this on route 13 a couple times when high in college. It's INSANE the amount of traffic/people driving with no passengers/how many cars go by in just one quarter mile stretch. Now multiply that little stretch of road and how many cars you saw by an extremely large number, and you might be able to comprehend the United States and how many people are driving. Now multiply THAT by a very large number and you might have a slight intimation of how many people are driving in the world - daily. Now look at all the buildings on google earth of just your development, then your city, then your county....and so on....

    can you even comprehend how much ENERGY we consume on a daily basis?! It's absolutely mind boggling and I have a very tough time comprehending it. But when you look at this and how many people there are in the world now, as opposed to even 20 years ago, you can start to see that there is no way we are not affecting the world we live on. How could we not? We are no longer 'changing' the face of the Mother, we have changed her. I don't pretend to know what the future has in store for us, but I do absolutely believe that we have had an influence on the World's systems/checks/balances and because of that things will change. Will we adapt? I'm sure we will, whatever happens, whether it be something drastic or relatively minor. However, please think, investigate, remain open-minded. Don't become extreme on one side of the issue or the other. Remain neutral, but don't scoff in the face of that-which-is in the name of a bias against 'liberals' or 'conservatives'. This shouldn't be a political battle.

    Sustainability is an important message to send our future generations and start practicing ourselves, because as much as we want to believe that our resources and space on this planet are endless, they are not. If population continues to be unchecked in growth (though once a nation becomes a 'developed' nation birth rate historically stabilizes and becomes negative compared to death rate) consumption of all resources (food, water, energy, natural landforms, forests, etc) will continue to go up in exponential amounts. Our population already has been increasing steadily on an exponential rate.

    Forgive me for these tangents, but I have a lot to say.

    It appears population underlies every major issue we have in the modern world. It is such a simple equation which undermines sustainability: The more people we have in the world, the more we will consume, and the more resources that are necessary for everyone to live, even more so to live 'comfortably'. We are already approaching a carrying capacity/critical mass though give it maybe 100 more years. Who knows what the future holds? Will technology keep evolving one step ahead of humanity so as to solve our problems as we need it? We have lots of space to build vertically yet. We have many natural areas of the world left to develop. But to develop is to destroy forever, unless sustainable development is implemented. Population will irrevocably increase, and as it does the strains and demand on resources will also grow. At what point is breaking point? We already can't feed the entire world/quench the thirst of the world/fuel the entire world. Our greatest problems have come out of a need to SUPPLY the world. We've shifted from local/family owned agriculture and farming practices to mega-corporations mechanically running HUGE plots of land and enslaving/engineering/pumping out meat products as metal parts come off the production line. No longer animals, but merely an end product developed, raised, and slaughtered as fast as possible, even going so far as to be genetically modified to quicken the pace. The poor will continue to become poorer - Places like Haiti (the poorest nation in the western hemisphere) will continue to suffer. What about places like Yemen (projected to completely deplete their water sources in 20 years) What are the solutions? Is it ethically sound to place restrictions on growth/birth so as to put a check on population? Is it ethical to stop research on cancer cures/disease cures so as to allow nature to play its hand in declining our numbers? Who are we to deny someone from having a child? A cure? (note these are questions, not my beliefs) Is it right to bring some semblance of humanity back to the creatures we have enslaved and are living tortured existences so as to feed the world? At what cost? It's a catch 22 - We've become dependent on our systems of unsustainability to BE sustained. We bring the animals back to the farms and out of the pens and cages but we won't be able to feed as many people. We pump animals out faster and in greater numbers, we feed more people.

    I digress.

    Hopefully this illustrates a few things: A.) the interconnectedness of our problems - everything is related, and everything is relevant B.) there is hope, for sure, and it is up to us to come up with creative solutions C.) To deny that this world is not changing and remain ignorant is certainly you're opinion, but as a 24 year old man I find arrogance to be socially irresponsible, and offensive. Especially when people are have become too comfortable with their lives speak of these things with no thought. It's one thing to have considered all the issues and speak of it with some semblance of knowledge, it's another to be told things by 'them' and form your opinions based off of that. We must, as always, think for ourselves and if nothing else remain neutral in an issue, because only through neutrality can you truly consider both sides of an issue. It is once you've become completely convinced of something that you become unwilling to consider other ideas.

    -Opus de Capesurfer-
    1/13/2010
    Wow Dude,How long did it take for you to write this.I thought Al's Gores Movie was really good.Seemed like he had some pretty good facts.If you never saw it at least give it a shot.

  2. #42
    Theories that claim to encompass an explanation for every phenomena are usually fallacious. There are simply too many factors to say yes, global warming is occuring, or the contrary.

  3. #43
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    wow, I didnt even mean to start the global warming conversation. I was just kidding, but thanks for the water temp info, I didn't know that salt water could get down to 28. Thats wild. I just assumed that because even up in Alaska and Novascotia etc, the temps usually bottom out at around the same as the mid atlantic. From what I remember seeing...


    But anyway, I agree mostly with Barrels4liam. I think the whole global warming concept has mutated into a bunch of bullsh**. Yes, temperature on this earth have dropped in 50 years, or maybe they have not. I just disagree with the co2, human interference argument. This earth has gone through radical changes in climate throughout its millions of years. Its been scorched, and its been frozen, it is all a natural process, which mostly involves the sun. Not to mention that fact that we have only been able to accurately record all this data within that last couple hundred years. Who knows what has been fluctuating throughout time.

    Yes, we pollute, yes we need to reduce consumption and output of garbage and smog, but these are environmental issues that do not relate to politics, or CLIMATE CHANGE. We live in an overpopulated world now. We are all close together, so we cannot waste as many resources as we do. As surfers, we all agree with that, but these are personal, social issues. We just dont want to live on top of trash dumps. Its just fundamental issues that the human race is dealing with. We have been able to bury and burn everything we wanted in the past. Those times are gone.

  4. #44
    "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.">>Bob Dylan

    Anyone who thinks that you have got to have letters after your name to have a valid, credible position/opinion, is @#$% as a rock. It is an insult to suggest that lay persons can not understand this topic or have nothing to contribute to the debate,...Because that IS what it IS, a debate between two different positions. There are People with " mutiple letters after their name" that take opposite sides, so who is right?

    I will just quote Brandon since he summed it up best.

    "it's possible to find a so-called expert who will support just about anything, usually the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes.

    not a religious discussion - just a thought to ponder - that the bible says God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth" <<<triple AMEN, may his Kingdom come.

    "If you think this is just a political scheme then you're just as big of a fool" <<<maybe your just as big of a fool/tool for thinking that it is not a political,... Not scheme,..SCAM.
    Regardless of the so called "Facts" , they, whomever they are,..Have created a scam to make money off of it,... if placed into law. Just like someone thought up those CDO's and Derivatives, hedge funds, etc. Exactly how far removed from those instruments do you think carbon credits are? Did you take the time to research the birth and history of the concept of carbon credits, who thought that crap up? Do you think they may stand a chance of getting,.. "PAID OFF"? You know, getting,.. "filth"ly Rich.

    "Honestly people, for this day and age it is socially irresponsible to continue an arrogant and ignorant attitude towards these issues rather than open-mindedness and concern." ..."but climate change is an irrefutable fact."<<<don't these cancel each other out?

    I was going to blast all the bull, but what is the use, A little over half the country voted for Bush, <<<(since his last name was Bush)>>> twice. And now a little over Half the country voted for some guy who they did not have a clue who the hell he was, but voted for him anyway. The only logical conclusion from all of this is that the VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY< (many of you reading this included) Are weak clueless sheep that will believe anything told to you.

    The climate is always changing and always will whether we are here or not. Yes we are destroying the earth, our home. But even the most nasty of the nasty (plutonium) has a half life of 24,000? years. So after human are gone, 1/4 of a million to 1/2 a MILLION YEARS later this earth will be pristine again. 500,000 years is not even a blink of an eye in universal time, or earth time for that matter.

    Anyway, say what you want,... yes we are affecting the climate/environment, but in no way to the extent to what one side wants everyone to believe.

    The earth is alive! It is always changing, always has always will, until the end, whatever or whenever that may be.

    I have yet to hear anyone deny the ice core samples, you know why? Because they show the truth, which is that Earth has for millions of years gone through cyclical pattens of hot and cold.

    And you can also try to explain away all the tree rings in the world you want, the trees have no agenda and do not lie.

  5. #45
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    agreed. Thats basically what I was saying too.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgen70 View Post
    <<<maybe your just as big of a fool/tool for thinking that it is not a political,... Not scheme,..SCAM.
    My emphasis was on thinking it is JUST political scheme/scam. Don't try to twist my words around on me.
    I love when someone comes on and talks down everyone else.

  7. #47
    "I love when someone comes on and talks down everyone else."

    Hi Pot, my name is Kettle

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by barrels4liam View Post
    I agree with many of your points with some exceptions. "Climate change is an irrevocable fact at this point." That is completely wrong. If you understand science, you understand that we come to scientific fact and evidence by questioning. You have believed what the media has told you along with the weapons of mass destruction lie. Why can't you see who benefits from these things and that they are not fact.

    I look at all presented facts, but you should too. You have to be neutral and realize it's not an irrevocable fact. Over 50,000 scientists have disputed that CO2 causes temp changes. You need to look at scientists outside the IPCC (which is a committee put together by politicians). Ask scientists and professors. Don't believe what you see on TV or wikipedia. Get hard copies of journals at your university. Don't ever say that a fact is irrevocable. Everything that I've seen shows CO2 doesn't cause climate change, but I can't say it's irrevocable until the majority of scientists agree. This can never happen because of the powerful hands of Washington. Do you know how scientific projects are funded. Only when an issue (global warming) is conveyed as very dangerous and people believe the fears suggested. Many scientists have come forward and admitted to lying about temp change to receive more funding from government. Most scientists believe the sun is causing warming, but they don't show that on television. I wonder why! How can we explain that Mars is experiencing climate change too. The only source that touches both planets is the sun. Solar irradiance causes climate change on both planets. All I'm saying is that we can't pass legislation regarding CO2 output which will take more money from citizens without debating this topic and showing evidence from both sides. We can't see it's a fact with so much evidence disputing it.

    Look at the millions of years of this planets history and you will see some dramatic climate changes and disasters before humans existed. Now, your point on CO2 being absorbed into the ocean is currently being studied. I don't want to give my opinion on this issue because I haven't researched it enough. This may be true which would require a reduction of CO2 (but not by taxing, hopefully industry will take the lead). I'm just arguing the point that CO2 changes temps based on the scientific evidence. That's all I'm saying that I disagree with.


    Well taken. I guess I should heed my own advice and never consider anything 'irrevocable'. Fairly dumb on my part. I think 'climate change' is a moot point, believe it or not, rather, I believe that there are valuable lessons to be learned from our won ton consumption and unsustainable practices. We are rapidly consuming and rapidly expanding - by products of this are toxic, harmful, and dangerous to long-term survival of our species. Whether there is climate change occurring as a direct result of this or if it is a natural cycle in which we are entering the next phase is not as important as what is actually happening on this Earth. We are absolutely destroying this Mother Earth with no regard for how it will affect the future. The fact that we have even put this much CO2 into the atmosphere/environment and it is measurable is significant. We may agree to disagree on whether climate change is human influenced or not, and I respect that. I too have studied such things, though with only a BS in Earth and Atmospheric Sciences. What I learned and came to realize is that climate change is a natural and normal part of Earth's cycles and it could be any number of non-human related factors causing it. I'm a skeptic of climate change as well, though it may not seem like it. But I do believe humans have caused a difference.

  9. #49
    In essence, I think most of us are saying the same things, i just read the rest of the comments here. We are aware of the destruction that we cause, and a lot of us do the best we can to live sustainably within our means. And, well, some of us just don't care, and are comfortable in our lives. This is okay too. but the future is in my generation's hands, and luckily things are changing. Unfortunately, short of quitting your life and going to live in an eco-village, there is not much more we can do at hte moment. The systems in place need to continue to change, which they will, because they are already starting to shift. We have a sea change occurring and that is hopeful. And ****, look at all the crazy things going on - Ray Kurzweil thinks the singularity will happen in the next 20 years - maybe a supercomputer AI will solve all our problems by realizing we are the problem and begin selective reduction in population...or maybe technology will continue to save and sustain us (cornucopia). Who knows? The future is an exciting thing.

    Anyone ever read James Lovelock? I just picked up two of his books, I think his philosophy fits in well with what i'm currently interested in - towit, Gaia theory - that this earth and everything in it acts as one living organism, as a lung is to a human, forests are to the Mother. Haven't read it yet, but a great concept.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by xgen70 View Post
    The only logical conclusion from all of this is that the VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY< (many of you reading this included) Are weak clueless sheep that will believe anything told to you.
    We can't all be iron-willed geniuses.