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  1. #31
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    Oct 2009
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    CAPE MAY ,NJ
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    I dont see how Vehicals on the Beach or any other areas like forests does anything wrong as longs as you Tread Lightly and you dont have a heep that leaks all over the place.

    People need to learn to leave it the way they found it before they were there

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    in the grace of the most holy FSM
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    oh, where to begin? i went to grade papers, fix a ding, & have a workout, only to come back to this!
    let me first make my position abundantly clear- what the audubon people are doing is WRONG. what the judge is doing is WRONG. they stuck their noses where it had no business. as previously mentioned, the proper name of cape hatteras is the cape hatteras national seashore & recreation area. the bird people seem to have either missed, ignored, or forgotten that fact.

    the science is shoddy. the park service has mis-managed the island ecosystem. i will agree that something needs to change, but this is NOT a solution that will work. historically, beach driving is as much a part of the islands as lighthouses. a large part of the reason people go to the outer banks is b/c they can drive on the beach, something that they can't do most other places. if you take that draw away, the island economy will collapse. before tourism, the economy was based on fishing. there aren't enough fish left in those waters for the islands to go back to that. as a biologist, you should know that.
    also, the response to nesting area violations is vastly disproportionate, insanely so. as was mentioned in the video, the gov't has abandoned these people & is actively working against them. the way the gov't has sided so blindly against the islanders makes it seem as though they are seeking to drive folks off the island. 300 years of history...for some birds that aren't endangered. & the cold-blooded murder of those birds' natural predators...these are not the actions of "preservationists". these are the actions of a group of people who believe that animals should be placed on a pedestal above humans at all costs. they are unwilling to compromise.

    i have long viewed myself as an environmentalist/preservationist/conservationist/what-have-you. i questioned how i would react to something like this. now i know...there needs to be a compromise, not this one-sided debacle. what's going on right now will NOT work in the long term. both sides can agree on that. what needs to happen is a compromise that allows access & provides protection for nesting birds & turtles. unfortunately, it looks more & more as though the "bird people" are not interested in such a compromise. for them, it seems to be their way or the high court.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewk529 View Post
    It's reality, there are hundreds of species negatively impacted by vehicle traffic on beaches; stop the car and walk! I am sure everyone could use the exercise.
    most of the areas closed this summer were also closed to all pedestrian traffic.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chadwick
    Posts
    1,307
    yeah,i 'reminded' him on page 3 post #26 about no people,driving or walking,and the killing of other living creatures,but he claims to know everything about this problem,yet ignores all these numerous corrections,like how it is not an endangered species.
    the people of Hatteras may be someday,though,if this keeps up

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Wilmington,DE
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    232
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    Quote Originally Posted by njsurfer42 View Post
    oh, where to begin? i went to grade papers, fix a ding, & have a workout, only to come back to this!
    let me first make my position abundantly clear- what the audubon people are doing is WRONG. what the judge is doing is WRONG. they stuck their noses where it had no business. as previously mentioned, the proper name of cape hatteras is the cape hatteras national seashore & recreation area. the bird people seem to have either missed, ignored, or forgotten that fact.

    the science is shoddy. the park service has mis-managed the island ecosystem. i will agree that something needs to change, but this is NOT a solution that will work. historically, beach driving is as much a part of the islands as lighthouses. a large part of the reason people go to the outer banks is b/c they can drive on the beach, something that they can't do most other places. if you take that draw away, the island economy will collapse. before tourism, the economy was based on fishing. there aren't enough fish left in those waters for the islands to go back to that. as a biologist, you should know that.
    also, the response to nesting area violations is vastly disproportionate, insanely so. as was mentioned in the video, the gov't has abandoned these people & is actively working against them. the way the gov't has sided so blindly against the islanders makes it seem as though they are seeking to drive folks off the island. 300 years of history...for some birds that aren't endangered. & the cold-blooded murder of those birds' natural predators...these are not the actions of "preservationists". these are the actions of a group of people who believe that animals should be placed on a pedestal above humans at all costs. they are unwilling to compromise.

    i have long viewed myself as an environmentalist/preservationist/conservationist/what-have-you. i questioned how i would react to something like this. now i know...there needs to be a compromise, not this one-sided debacle. what's going on right now will NOT work in the long term. both sides can agree on that. what needs to happen is a compromise that allows access & provides protection for nesting birds & turtles. unfortunately, it looks more & more as though the "bird people" are not interested in such a compromise. for them, it seems to be their way or the high court.
    There is zero empirical ambiguity pertaining to the closing of the beaches to vehicle, or human traffic during specific breeding periods. Yes, the beaches were used as highways on Hatteras Island before route 12 and Oregon Inlet bridge were constructed; That's why the highway was constructed........ The point of compromise is over for the majority of the species on the Outer Banks; which is the reason drastic action should be taken. Why should a few minor local interests subvert threatened and endangered species? People will still come in droves to the OBX, even if they're restricted to their McMansions along the beach.
    Last edited by andrewk529; Sep 15, 2010 at 03:30 AM.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Wilmington,DE
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    Quote Originally Posted by MATT JOHNSON View Post
    I dont see how Vehicals on the Beach or any other areas like forests does anything wrong as longs as you Tread Lightly and you dont have a heep that leaks all over the place.

    People need to learn to leave it the way they found it before they were there

    From an ideological perspective your correct; the pragmatism of the issue is the complete antithetical ecological stratification of both environments. Trees are significantly harmed by excess exhaust from vehicles, not including the leaking carcinogens. Think of the many creatures trampled to death by someone driving a large truck over the beaches. It is more than a few birds and turtles which are being destroyed. I wish everyone would bring their trash as they leave, but we all know this isn't the case. A quick walk south from Buxton on the main thoroughfare to the cape will highlight the many colors of plastic littered all over the beach.

  7. #37
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    Oct 2009
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    CAPE MAY ,NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewk529 View Post
    From an ideological perspective your correct; the pragmatism of the issue is the complete antithetical ecological stratification of both environments. Trees are significantly harmed by excess exhaust from vehicles, not including the leaking carcinogens. Think of the many creatures trampled to death by someone driving a large truck over the beaches. It is more than a few birds and turtles which are being destroyed. I wish everyone would bring their trash as they leave, but we all know this isn't the case. A quick walk south from Buxton on the main thoroughfare to the cape will highlight the many colors of plastic littered all over the beach.
    Do u know the what tread lightly is ????

    Its using exhisting man made or trails made my nature. If you dont go off the path or make your own trail vegitation is not harmed . Trees are harmed my the emissions of vehicals but there are trees everywhere so what do you suggest park are car or trucks???

    I am a firm beliver of leave it the way you found it or better. I dont know how much trash it take with me off the beach thats not my own.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Jacksonville FL
    Posts
    459
    Fine I will say it...andrewk529 you are a douche. Go back to Amsterdam or just stay your ass in Delaware. Nothing minor about this issue. Government never gives back what it takes...it just takes. No new compromise needed stick to the original agreement.

    PS. Contrary to your pompous self righteous tree hugging douchbaggery not everyone in Hatteras lives in mansions. Most of my friends and family are just getting by as is. You are not the solution... you are the problem

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewk529 View Post
    There is zero empirical ambiguity pertaining to the closing of the beaches to vehicle, or human traffic during specific breeding periods. Yes, the beaches were used as highways on Hatteras Island before route 12 and Oregon Inlet bridge were constructed; That's why the highway was constructed........ The point of compromise is over for the majority of the species on the Outer Banks; which is the reason drastic action should be taken. Why should a few minor local interests subvert threatened and endangered species? People will still come in droves to the OBX, even if they're restricted to their McMansions along the beach.
    MINOR?!? have you ever even been to cape hatteras (hatteras...not the outer banks in general, b/c duck, corolla, etc...are all already borderline over-developed & over-populated)?? did you read my post or watch the video?? this is not a case of a few people & their businesses being affected by this. it's the entire island & everyone that lives there, owns property there, or visits there on a regular basis.
    i can tell you for a FACT that business was down significantly all across the outer banks in the first couple years that this went on. people are not & will not come to the outer banks if the beaches are closed. beach driving is only one aspect of this situation. people come there b/c they can find secluded spots on the beach, away from other people...if they want to be packed into a small stretch of beach, they can come to nj or go to fla. or just about any other over-developed coastal town in the US. the fact that development is limited to certain parts of the island ensures that hatteras island will never become a hilton head or ocean city (md OR nj). that's legal fact.
    there is ambiguity in the empirical evidence...if there isn't, why did the observable plover population DECLINE on hatteras island during the time of the closures when the observable plover population world-wide has INCREASED?

    as matt said: tread lightly, leave it better than you found it, take your trash w/ you. & drive slowly. the beach speed limit is less than 15mph. no reason to go faster than that. just cruise & enjoy the scenery (birds included).

  10. #40
    i've lived here on hatteras island for 34 years and things were fine until people that don't live here started sticking their noses where they don't belong.

    this is not a beach driving issue........it's a public lands access issue. take away a little bit here, a little bit there and eventually there will be nothing left for people to enjoy.