I'm getting me some Obamacare

God, you are so much nicer than that MIS-13 guy. I can deal with you.

Of course I wish I could change the world. Most of you guys seem to hate the poor and idsadvanteged and feel that we should let people die in the streets because they didn't go to Andover and Yale. These anti-entitlements people have no clue what people go through. It's kind of hard to be a success when you were raised by your grandmother in a violent, drug-infested nieghborhood surrounded by bad influences. Not feeling wanted, loved and abject povery does strange things to people.

Yeah, I wish the world was a better place. But people like MIS-13 actually believe in humanity's "goodness" and that ain't the case. People are greedy, power hungry, and selfish. There's no way to make this world much better. Communities based on these theories of yours don't work. It's been tried and tested.

And this anarchy stuff. Man, it means everything from complete lawlessness to some dream state of clasless, non-hierarchical societies.......you guys would be fighting amongst yourselves in a matter of minutes.

Look what happened to many surf spots without a hierarchy-based order. The line-ups are a lawless zoo. Sometimes you need a gorilla to keep the animals in check. And the modern western world has the best gorillas society has to offer. No, it's not perfect but this is earth - it's not supposed to be perfect. Only God is perfect. That's one's for you, Wayne.

 

Thanks for keeping this thread alive PJB... I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
I'm unemployed at the moment so until the waves pick up around here (should be today!) this is all I got besides my 2 dogs, my canoe, and my soon-to-be baby-mama (who just made me some banana pudding...score!)

I think we would have a wonderful discussion if people would not assume things about other people (that's why I asked about the morality thing before)..and try to focus on the real issues...The real issue for us liberty types is the moral inconsistencies that arise in the kind of Government we have... If ppl can't see the inconsistencies then they are not looking or care to not look. I will ask simple questions of the group starting with this one:

Does anyone reading think that it is Moral to take someones property w/o permission?
or to use the threat of physical force to do the same? no matter what the end result is.... That is the basis for our current type of government. This thread is about the ACA (obamacare), the IRS and so forth. please help me understand what you ppl think is moral or right!? I'm very interested in this! cheers!

 

sorry, but to clarify, when we Libertarians talk about "stealing property" we are talking about taxation... when we talk about "force" we are talking about the various "penalties" you can incur for failing to pay taxes. This can include having more of your "property" taken and/or jail time. We also laugh at the idea that paying INCOME TAX is "voluntary"... it of course is not. thanks again for reading

 

First of all BBG, y'all hit me at a bad time. I haven't been able to focus fully on this stuff. I'm just stopping in during breaks. I'm writing sh!t, BBG.........important stuff aboot marijuana and heroin. And a few other things. So I've been distracted.

Second of alls, I didn't attack you dreamer types. I attacked republicans when I first got on this thread. Do I hate republicans? Yes, yes I do. Hate 'em. Democrats are fixable. Republicans are phony, evil, hypocrits. Really fellas, who do you think is more likely to subscribe to your views? Liberals or conservatives? I used to be anti-government when I was a pup. Then the republicans became all neo-con crazy and I had to pick a side. This is a two party system and that ain't changing anytime soon. Yeah, I'd vote for Jesse Ventura and Howard Stern anyday.

But it is what it is, and no one is going to change. Not when they are satiated by SUV's, flatscreen TV's, smartphones, etc. Religion is the opiate of the masses???? Ha, Jesus ain't got nothing on our tech gadgets. People are sheep who are easily amused by cat videos and talking to all their friends......all day......everyday.....aboot NOTHING.

The only thing that would lead Americans into sociopolitcal change is taking away their middle class jobs, their Big Macs, and Facebook. Other than that, they are content. No one's going to risk their comfort zone to enact change. So, I was never angry at you or MIS-13 for your idealist views, but I KNOW these dreams will never come true.

Like, I would move to Canada in a second if I could. Ahhh, BBG, you ever been to Canada? You can feel the freedom and common sense and common courtesy as soon as you cross the border......You guys should move to Canada it's the closest you're going to get to paradise on earth.......good waves with beautifiul back-drops, too. Man, Canada is friggin awesome.

I gotta go. Cheer up BBG you got two dogs. Work's for the common proles.

 

There's no way to make this world much better.
this is a myth, the world is what you make it

also, I will try and check my tone, and of course I post links to experts as I am not an expert.

 

well we can definitely agree on one thing (and prob see eye to eye on much more). Republicans are very worthy of attacking! I wholeheartedly support attacking them. in fact they are enemy #1 for Libertarians bc they sully our good name. they are the worst of the worst in my book bc their policies would seek to drag out this downward spiral that our country's in for decades to more to come! . There's no reason to attack Democrats bc their policies will bring about our downfall MUCH FASTER...Then and only then can we get around to rebuilding this Union into a truly "kinder and gentler" nation! Dog speed you all!

 

Also, attacking either/both blue/red ideologies is on point, both think theft is ok and the Somalia analogy is a poor one, westernization destroyed the voluntary based tribal societies that existed before Euro's conquest of Africa

Try reading Kropotkin's 'Mutual Aid' if you care to see the way societies self organized in the past

but then again, if you don't want to bother broadening your horizons, why read a book whenn you can just post made up stories on poorly made analogies

those are sweet straw man arguments you set up PJB, /sarc-off

 

Careful there. You are really starting to sound like Archy.

 

After seeing some of his posts, he seems on point about some things, and a bit (or more) off on others. Maybe he actually knows how to discuss things? pointing to a straw man argument is legit, saying it is not by trying to link me to archie, is again, another straw man argument:
here is how a straw man works, if you are interested:

Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

 

On to point/question #2 that most people get confused and or misconstrued about Libertarians... when statements like THIS are made : "And this anarchy stuff. Man, it means everything from complete lawlessness to some dream state of clasless, non-hierarchical societies.......you guys would be fighting amongst yourselves in a matter of minutes." WRONG. In fact there will be BETTER rules and things similar in scope to LAWS in a Libertarian society (LS for short) bc in a LS THERE WOULD BE NO VICTIM-LESS LAWS i.e. drug laws etc..... most of the laws on the books today are meant to actually protect the elite. how so you ask? Drug Laws and their ilk overwhelmingly impact the poorer/darker skinned among us. If you don't believe so the next time you drive by a work crew picking up trash count the number of brothers in the chain gang. They ain't letting the murderers and rapists out on a day work patrol i assure you...these guys were booked most likely on possession charges. These guys are the victims of our LAWS. Hell they go in pot dealers and come out trained for REAL CRIME. so again if you all prefer this system you are FOR unbalanced Laws that overwhelmingly hurt the poor and minority communities. I can go on . And most likely will bc the surf was real ugly when last i checked. tomorrow should be the day! So who likes DRUG LAWS??

 

well there are strawman arguments and there are what I like to describe as "hangman" arguments. That is when people rattle on not knowing that they are in fact making somebody's point for them better than they could themselves. This is what most people who don't understand Anarchy, but wish to debate its foolishness, have been doing all along and if we sit back I think most people who are reading along will come to conclude also. (didn't Lenin make the remark concerning "selling capitalists the rope to hang themselves by??")

 

who likes drug laws?
private prison investors
the prison guard unions
big pharma
etc

 

bingo!
but I would've given anyone a cookie for simply shouting
"
REPUBLICANS" -or- "THE MAN!"

 

wtf? how did I become a SENIOR MEMBER? and wtf does that mean?

 

If you think he knows how to properly discuss topics, I think you are just as lost as he is. The problem with conspiracy theorists, is that they live their lives believing wacko sites like infowars, while shunning legitimate studies and information. In that way, they can never lose.

 

infowars is garbage

 

Yeah, straw........

I don't know how to discuss anything. Maybe I'll start using "experts" to argue for me. Or post links to the Daily Show.....That will show you that I know how to debate. I WAS HEAD DEBATER AT THE PHILLIPS ACADEMY in ANDOVER, MA ........How dare you. Why I never.......

Dudes, youse guys' hold on to this theory that people get along. That pride, jealousy, greed, anger, the desire for power aren't typical human emotions/feelings/motivators. That we can lose the government and everyone's going to love one another and work for the common good. Really? You guys really believe that? Man, go spend a day in jail.

Also, one of youse is claiming Liberatrararatarianism and the other is claiming anarchy. Yet, you both seem to think youse guys are one and the same. Not really.

And don't you see that identifying and labeling yourself, and your sociopolitical beliefs, already puts you on the fast track to become just like what you claim to despise.......

MIS-13 you sound easily influenced by anything you claim to have read that makes you sound intellectual. May I suggest Gordon Korman's This Can't be Happening at McDonald Hall or Beware the Fish Bruno and Boots are total anarchists. I love when they go poon hunting over at Miss Scrimage's Finishing School for Young Ladies.

Hey MIS-13, I've grown tired of trading barbs or insults over the computer.......like a year ago. Should have come aboard back then. But, when you get back to New Jersey we can do this:

Set up a table on the boardwalk in Atlantic City. Ocean City's boardwalk is too boring. We'll get more action in AC. And we'll debate each other and let others join in on the discussion. No links, so bring your A-game. I'm serious. I'm game, if not only for the comedic effect it will have on the lost souls and tourists who wander AC's boardwalk.

Next September, right.....ahhh perfect, we'll have all the Miss America traffic........shoot we might even make the news....BBG, you can show up, too.

 

Can I be moderator? MIS-13 I promise to be unbiased.

 

a round table or a folding card table?
will there be beer?
not easily influenced at all, I have read so much lib/conserv garbage, took me a while to figure out what I was
and libertarians are heavily overlapping with anarchists, if one were to draw a Venn diagram

 

Yeah, you'd make a fine moderator Seldom Seen. I just got to keep you away from the whores. Shoot, someone's got to keep me away from the projects.

Oh and just to let BBG and MIS-13 know......I'd love to live in their paradiscal worlds. I'd love it. But it's never gloing to happen. Dudes, most people don't even vote, much less get behind any social change taht would require any effort.

Your average American hasn't made any self-sacrifice, for something greater than themselves, since World War II.