Technique -- front side bottom turn

This thread made me think of this pic X Gen 70 took of me about 10 years ago. Thanks for the Pic! Definitely a typical front side bottom turn for me as far as arm placement goes. Arms flailing as usual but front arm forward and rear arm toward the face of the wave. Man I miss that little Jon Ashton Hyper Egg.

 

Hate that anyone tries to define "technique" or correct surfing. I love surfing because there are no coaches, rules or right or wrong. Skating is also beautiful that way but it is derivative and the surface is static. Infinite lines, limitless shapes of hull, no finish line or score. People are so desperate to confine it that they come up with surfing contests. Who is better? Who cares? Dudes that think they are so good at it they deserve paychecks. I know a good bt when it feels right and puts me and my hull at the right spot in time and space with that spot never to be there again. Different every damn time. It is what keeps me coming back.

 

Nothing like a good wake and bake... Am I right bean?

 

Clemdog, of course the Carver is the end all of my surfing progression. Goes without saying on this forum that my allegiance lies with those awesome contraptions. I've been using it much especially lately to rep out the feel of all things mentioned in this thread. The Green Room 34" is really taking things up a level for me and has the most surfy feel yet. Been putting a lot of focus lately to weight distribution and transfer during various maneuvers.

Erock - unreal post. Keep talking and I'll listen. You said centripetal force. Awesome. Been hitting that roulette table haven't you? I was reading about the Coriolis Effect this week when I was researching mechanisms behind nor'easters, so this relates somewhat to that science. Take a look at part C here: http://stratus.ssec.wisc.edu/courses/gg101/coriolis/coriolis.html
The talk of east/west implications is interesting. Would the "rotation" of a wave have major implication on the centripetal force and pendular effect of the head/body? I've never taken any type of physics course, not even in high school, so this is all Greek to me. In other news, sandblasters' head just exploded.

mitchell - cool pic that's useful to us. I like how you mention front arm forward and rear arm facing wave (for frontside). That's what I was talking about with the "thumbs down" on front hand.

LBCrew - great points about the knees and compression and that's a hell of a video. We all learned a lot from it. Concerning knees, a dude a while back stopped his car one night I was ripping on the Carver and asked if I was riding it for surfing. When I confirmed that to him, he simply told me to "steer with the knees". I've seen since that he probably meant I was putting my hips back in a weight room squat and then bending at lower back rather than bending at the knees like an Ollie. That way, the knees can move independently of each other and back foot can swivel when necessary and knee can drop like surfers do all the time on their back foot/knee. When Erock talks about the Z-axis, does he mean when we go heel toe then back foot to front then also changing a level with compression/extension? Case in point - was trying to figure out why I was falling off the board heel side on some rides I was turning and accelerating toe side. This discussion is telling me when that happens I am likely putting hips too far back rather then bending knees and keeping hips centered over the stringer or intended COG.

Agabinet - get on a Carver bro. Since when should you care what anyone else thinks? Get on one and wait til you ride by people and those people smile. Not kidding. Some will get mad and think you're a societal nuisance but most will be caught in the midpoint of bewilderment and satisfaction had by those watching someone ride a Carver and seeing what it does. Based on their reactions, what they see seems right to them. I'm not talking about getting props from the fellow misfits you ride by. I mean the thumbs up the kid in the car gives you as you cruise by and the old folks that point at you while their face lights up. In the end, all my efforts are to eventually do on a surfboard what I'm doing more and more on a Carver. What walk of life has ever seen a surfboard being rode properly and efficiently and didn't enjoy watching that?

For you "just go out and surf" guys, you're all natural freaks to those like me and the OP. You gotta understand that this isn't us trying to make the easy play hard or the fun activity a drag. It's us interpreting what we are experiencing and using our version of necessary feedback to get the feel that you just feel out on your own. Honestly, if we don't do this at least some of the time we are gonna keep falling when we'd otherwise not and hit a maneuver when we otherwise would fail to complete it. Props to you guys, but it ain't that easy for us most of the time.

 

Spoken like a true Hull Surfer. I can respect that, but I got the feeling we were talking about high performance surfing. Man, I haven't ridden a hull shape in a hot minute... a buddy of mine shaped a 7'5" last year--you just inspired me to go borrow it from him.

...after all, he does surf hulls.

Don't worry about it. Plus, campuses are way too busy for carving asphalt. You need to find a quiet neighborhood with angled/soft curbs and small hills. You definitely don't want to be bombing at mach 6 if you want to work on carves. Flat is even better 'cause you can work on your fluid pumping p).

Whoa dude! I ain't no rocket, space/time continuum surgeon! I'm just taking a break from doing some work on my house right now. I understand what you're getting at, will post my take on it a little later.



Just as a diversion, pulled out some vinyls I haven't listened to in a while. Just throwing it out there:

[video=youtube;gu5KSwzpUhQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu5KSwzpUhQ[/video]

You're welcome.

 

Sorry to clog up the thread with a bunch of pictures. I don't think about technique much when I'm surfing, but I can look at a picture. Here are a couple of Vince B. I shot on a solid day a couple years ago. Frontside and backside bottom turns, on waves that he made.

 

MR - iconic photo - arms at his side. jamming a b-turn.
dif stroke/dif folk. dif egg / dif yolk.

 

I love you man! Awesome vid. I once read an article by Slater that spoke of planning the bottom turn based on what the wave has to offer, which should dictate your approach. He spoke of initiating the bottom turn with your hips first to get a turn that will keep speed and project you down the line after the initial turn, rather than starting the turn with your arms and shoulders, which will make it a more vertical bottom turn where you lose down the line speed. He was talking about surfing chest high down the line waves, not big ass power turns on waves that can hold power.

My observation is that he is a freak and I usually turn too hard on small waves and lose momentum. Also I can lean alot harder on my backside bottom turn due to it being off the heels. A frontside bottom turn requires more finesse since it is off the toes. Coiling from bent knees helps project you into the next move with speed. Look at Sunny on his patented frontside hacks - he is still looking back at the lip after he has hit it, keeping his shoulders way behind his hips to give him mad torque on the release. (Don't forget to snarl - it lets the wave know you are in charge).

 

Great thoughts sisurfdogg, thanks brah.

Waiting on Erock's Mystery Science Theater response once he puts down the Honey-Do List and picks up the Flux Capacitor to give us the formula. Really though, his response should be rich in detail and smelling of rich mahogany.

zach619 - you too good to bless us with your infinite bottom turn tech knowledge? Bro, do you even still surf?

 

Great thread, I have days where I "just go out and surf" and not think about it and end up surfing really well and not really know how I did it, but I walk away feeling like I know what the hell i'm doing out there, and other times I go out and pay attention to everything i'm doing and I try to work on things, sometimes it works and I get better by trial and error, but I think it's important to do both so that it's not always about learning, sometimes it's just about the fun, which is really why we do it right? One thing is for sure, every time I ever put pressure on myself to do well, I don't do as well as I'd like, so you guys trying to make this into a science should chill out a little and just enjoy the ride. Anyways, great pics Mitchell, always appreciated!

 

Great thread.... some good responses. Probably a million different ways to describe how to do a bottom turn.

I think maybe you're stressing too much on where everyone else puts their arms and such. Your arms, hands, head etc... are all used to balance your body and everyone's body is different. Kind of like every unique style of walking. It just boils down to balance.

Put your arms and hands and other appendages where they need to be to balance you throughout doing the maneuver.

What is very crucial is that you always look to where you are going. Always point your head and eyes at your destination. This is rule number UNO in learning to surf!

One thing I learned from a surfing coach way back in the day when I was just a grom that I always remember to this day is that your back foot is your rudder. Your front foot is your sail. In other words your back foot is used mainly for steering and the initial directing of the board. Your leading foot provides balance and by moving forward and back can cause drive and stalling.

Personally I find it very hard to describe to someone how to surf or how to do a particular maneuver. To me its just all a feeling. I know when I do a particular maneuver perfectly because it feels really good!

On a sidenote.... to really pull off the perfect bottom turn the absolute key is that you are in the perfect spot going the perfect speed. From there you do just do a little wiggle....

 

Haha, I wish. I've been thinking about how to explain it without working myself into a corner of inexplicableness:

I'm speaking mostly in regards to high performance surfing bottom turns and more specifically a sharp one that will set you up to go vertically off the lip. More drawn out bottom turns probably involve most of the same mechanics but are done slower (in your follow through, board speed should always be fast) and, well, more drawn out.

You're dealing with three dominant forces to create speed. There are other, smaller forces but the main ones are gravity (vertical force), wave force (horizontal force) and inertia (force in whatever direction you have to be going). These are what push you and allow for all those other little forces to work--like planing the hull, getting the foils in your fins to work and create lift, board flexing and other stuff. Any turn you do has one common element: Using all this physicsy stuff so you can change direction while maintaining as much momentum and speed as possible. What's unique to a bottom turn (and a cutback in some instances) is your ability to create more speed by making all the mechanics work together than they would working on their own.... dare I say it?.... SYNERGY (ugh).

This is where my weird pendulum analogy comes in and where I need to add another: the sling shot. Sling shot like the old school kind you twirl around, not a rubber band attached to a couple sticks. These aren't the best analogies because the assumption is the apex of each is fixed.... but you're hopefully moving if you're surfing. So, you're dropping in, getting to the bottom of the wave and need to do a bottom turn to get back up the face because going straight to the beach is lame--here is where you want to become a pendulum (to an extent). You keep your legs bent and make sure your rear leg is really bent, set the board on the rail and start extending your legs. The idea here is you want to get your legs, and therefore your board, moving faster than your center of gravity in an arc back up the face. Don't forget you're progressively leaning into the turn as well (I guess this is what I meant by the z-axis, 3D thing). By the time you're starting to go back up the face you start compressing your legs to catch your upper body up to the board.

I'm not sure this makes one lick of sense and I probably left something really important out, but I hope that helps.

Sorry DPS, we gots no waves and I had to work on the one day of epic swell we've had in a long time.

 

Simple, head straight for the beach, when you hit the flats, grab both of your ankles and eye up the next section from between your legs.

 

All good, very good explanation, it's so hard to put surfing into words sometimes