Quad versus twinzer or twin fin

A twinzer's leading fin operates as a canard (google it... there's lots of info out there), redirecting flow and modifying pressure around the main fin. It helps prevent spinout by keeping water attached to the main fin so it maintains lift, sucking the fin and inside rail down and into the water for increased stability and hold. What you feel depends largely on the placement, size, aspect ratio, etc. of the main fin, and the placement, size, foil and toe angle of the leading fin (along with a lot of other factors). So... not all twinzers feel the same, but they all share the same basic principle... increased stall angle and better stability and hold than a twin.

 

LBC is right on...had a number of twinzers and summarize it as a twin with more stability and drive.

User Tchc85 had a quiver of twinzers for a while...PM him he swore by them!

Also, selfish promotion coming...be aware...

I've been selling a few for him...posted them a while ago--nt., the link below. Additionally, I'll be posting a few craigslist posts with reduced prices if you're interested in getting a used one before committing, nt., LINK.

Sorry for he high jack...carry on!

 

Brian wynn shaped me a twinzer fish liked it so much I got a minisimms twinzer shaped too. I tend to ride my boards with a heavy front foot so they work for me. But your right about hollow waves with juice thrusters/ quads more stable. Its more like an aggressive twin fin. You cant go wrong having one in your quiver.

 

i usually ride my mini simmons(mystic/jim dunlop)..as twinzer..or keels...
but switched a neal purchase jr. quartet quad set up(good article on swaylocks)...
big fins(5"+) up front...smaller 3.25" 's in the rear..been working really really well in all conditions..
even switched my 6.8 (double bump roundtail) to it also..

 

Hey since you guys are on the twin fin topic slightly, and lb crew seems to know what's up, I was wondering if any of you could delve into the affects of twin keel fins specifically for fish shapes. I'm keen to hear opinions regarding the toe in angle if any and the corresponding fin foil types.

 

Charles keels tend to be more drivey, yet not so great on the turns. I hrew a pair of the Sea Shepherd keels in my fish and literally felt like i couldnt surf on them. I thought maybe it was just cause they were new and i was used to the T1's, but after trying them for a solid month in varying waves (heights, and conditions) it was still the same old story. Switched back to the T1's and all was good again.

I've only ever rode a garage shaped twinzer, it was super fast. But that could be just the overall fat, wide shape of the board. I prefer the looseness of a twin myself.

 

I've had a couple twinzers, which IMHO is a very efficient fin design, different shapers lay'em out in different ways. I had 1 from Larry Mabile very good fast board, loose . I have had 2 by Wayne Okamoto - both very good- drivey, loose, fast,, and hold well in steep and OH surf. I have what he calls "Dyna Pynzer" models you can see pictures on his blog (google oakfoils) but he uses the twinzer set up on many of his models.

How a twinzer works depends not just on the fin layout, but also how the shaper has done the template, rocker and rails. Good ones are great, try one from someone who has done a few and you will see they are fun, with good speed and range.
I always recommend Wayne O - he is a great shaper, communicates well, turns boards around quick and is a stand up guy
Jim

 

No offense, but what's a littlerhody? It sounds like the speech of a toddler.

The more fins the better. I ride a 17 fin 4'8".

 

Here's my understanding of how things developed, in 100 words or less... The original twins, as you probably know, had twin keels that were symmetrically foiled, with zero toe and cant... double foiled, straight up, and straight ahead. These were before the first "Fish," although they were twin fins. Lis came along and changed that game with shorter fish shape we all know and love, but he still kept the original double foiled fins made from fiberglass, with no cant or toe. As the design continued to evolve, he moved to marine ply... then added some toe. Reno Abellira and Lis worked together a lot on the concept, and I think it was Reno who took the single foiled fin concept to the twin fin, which led to MR's performance twin fin boards that were really no longer fish.

The point of bringing all of this up (which may or may not be 100% accurate) is that the final stage of evolution of the fish design that's still considered "retro" is single foiled keels, slightly toed and canted, on a traditional fish outline and foil, but with some modernized tweaks to the bottom contours and materials used, namely stringers (Lis' originals were stringerless) and EPS instead of PU foam. This last phase of evolution has increased the performance envelope of the "traditional" fish considerably. Gotta run now... maybe post up more later.

 

Good read. THanks LBCrew....

I am a thruster man, through and through. By my shaper made me a quad fish. 5'7x19.5 and typical thickness, can't remember the dmiension off the top of my head, but it has a swallow and a standard quad....

I used this board mainly to tool around on smaller days on the reefs in California, but now living in South Carolina, I find this to be my first go to board if its large enough (waist to chest) to ditch the long board. Followed by the Sharpeye Disco for the good stuff when it comes...

Anyway, now that I find myself riding this fish all the time, it makes me wonder what I could do to the setup to give me a turning radius more like the ones I am used to on a thruster... DISCLAIMER: I have already spoken to some guys about this and they said, well fish shapes really aren't ever going to act that way, regardless of fin setup....

So here is the breakdown on what I feel now. It has fantastic drive, easy as hell to paddle in and navigate with, floats like a champ, really hugs the face with a high line.... But it requires a WAY more exhagerated turning line to get the boards direction completely turned around... I.E. To do a big hit off the top, I have to take a deeper bottom turn, enabling me to get a solid vertical angle back up the face. At the pinicle, I just throw it up and into the lip and basically bounce back down in another vertical line back down... But my style really involves swinging the tail through, getting my fins out. Same thing on big, quick cutbacks... You kind of feel the fins digging too much, really locking on the face and along with the tail shape and fin setup, its tough to get a really clean, rail to rail turn in that really has a ton of torque. You kind of half to lay off of it a little bit and make a more gradual turn....

So, I have ridden a "retro" fish in San Diego before... It was the old school twin keel deal. It was slippery. Like, all over the place. I remember saying to my buddy, "why the hell do all you guys think its so cool to ride these twin and throwbacks. technology has made surfing so much easier..."

So, in the right conditions, the board is sick. I dont mind the fins, but when you need to get loose, and really get the board turned around, I am not a huge fan of how responsive those fins are...

So, I guess, in a nut shell, other than tell me "Go buy a thurster" cause this board is a gem. She is a beauty. Hand crafted by a good friend... I just want to know how to make my quad setup react more similarly to a thruster.... I know that sounds stupid, but I am serious.

Found a pic on my phone: Here she is with the current fin setup. FCS m4s.

 

Zach... the feedback you've been given is accurate. The reason why your fish feels like that is mainly because of the outline (straight) and rocker (flat). Take that fin setup and put it on a groveler shape with more curve (or bumps... or wings... or hips...) in the tail, and give it some tail kick, and you'll find a complete difference in performance. The fish's long, extended, straight rail line from the widepoint back, along with it's lack of exit rocker, makes the fish feel stiffer than shortboards... but that's also partly why they go so freak'n fast... even in small or weak surf. So take those design elements (flat rocker and straight outline) and apply them to any board and you'll find the same affects... a more open turning radius, and the feeling like you're pushing water with the fins and tail if you try to force it into a tighter turning arc.

But if all you have to play with are fins... and I'm no fin expert... the only thing I would suggest is try larger fins in the front, and smaller fins in the back, and/or fins with more flex, less rake, and more height. You'll lose some drive, but you'll be able to feel a difference in terms of what happens when you surf it off the back foot.

 

Thanks. I have tried putting the large fins in the front before for one session just to see what was up when I saw another guy with that setup. Wasn't a whole world of difference, but I noticed that the industry standard and the preference from most quads I observed was my current setup. I figured if most other quad setups had the larger fins in the back, there was a reason everyone did it that way, so I didn't put too much thought into it. Its just strange, cause I have had shortboard hybrids and almost not exit rocket. Granted they were a little thinned. I still have one I road a month of so ago. Its an old NA board from New York... 5'11x19 with a small swallow tail and a thurster setup and the thing turns on a dime. comparatively speaking. Reacted pretty much like all my other boards. Like I said, the volume is different.

I guess I will just mess around with the fins and see what up. Think whole twinzer got me thinking of trying out some tiny side fines, like the bonzer idea and seeing what happened.

 

Ya zach im pretty sure the small fins go in the back. Notice they have no flat edge per right fin or left fin. So they act as the 3rd fin in the thruster set up.

Try a fin with a bit more flex. My altime fave right now is the rasta quads. But they are futures. I dont know what to recommend for fcs, but something that'll snap back.

 

been poking around online looking at various fin setups. seeing reviews of the placement of the larger fins and stuff.... Seems like there are all kinds of options out here...

Here is a pretty epic photo that just happened to fall into my google search. EPIC!

 

I actually do have the large fins up front right now. Just looked at it. This is an older photo. I have tried it both ways though.

 

Try some different fins. You'll find a pair you like, or you'll just decide quads arent for you. Like i did with thrusters. Cant even ride em. Unless its huge and im on my 7'0, which has happened twice in 4 years. Otherwise its twins and quads (and single fin logs).

 

When you say single foil do you mean a flat side is on that fin ? Or the inverse ?