Colder than normal?

Wow Dude,How long did it take for you to write this.I thought Al's Gores Movie was really good.Seemed like he had some pretty good facts.If you never saw it at least give it a shot.

 

Theories that claim to encompass an explanation for every phenomena are usually fallacious. There are simply too many factors to say yes, global warming is occuring, or the contrary.

 

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.">>Bob Dylan

Anyone who thinks that you have got to have letters after your name to have a valid, credible position/opinion, is @#$% as a rock. It is an insult to suggest that lay persons can not understand this topic or have nothing to contribute to the debate,...Because that IS what it IS, a debate between two different positions. There are People with " mutiple letters after their name" that take opposite sides, so who is right?

I will just quote Brandon since he summed it up best.

"it's possible to find a so-called expert who will support just about anything, usually the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes.

not a religious discussion - just a thought to ponder - that the bible says God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth" <<<triple AMEN, may his Kingdom come.

"If you think this is just a political scheme then you're just as big of a fool" <<<maybe your just as big of a fool/tool for thinking that it is not a political,... Not scheme,..SCAM.
Regardless of the so called "Facts" , they, whomever they are,..Have created a scam to make money off of it,... if placed into law. Just like someone thought up those CDO's and Derivatives, hedge funds, etc. Exactly how far removed from those instruments do you think carbon credits are? Did you take the time to research the birth and history of the concept of carbon credits, who thought that crap up? Do you think they may stand a chance of getting,.. "PAID OFF"? You know, getting,.. "filth"ly Rich.

"Honestly people, for this day and age it is socially irresponsible to continue an arrogant and ignorant attitude towards these issues rather than open-mindedness and concern." ..."but climate change is an irrefutable fact."<<<don't these cancel each other out?

I was going to blast all the bull, but what is the use, A little over half the country voted for Bush, <<<(since his last name was Bush)>>> twice. And now a little over Half the country voted for some guy who they did not have a clue who the hell he was, but voted for him anyway. The only logical conclusion from all of this is that the VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY< (many of you reading this included) Are weak clueless sheep that will believe anything told to you.

The climate is always changing and always will whether we are here or not. Yes we are destroying the earth, our home. But even the most nasty of the nasty (plutonium) has a half life of 24,000? years. So after human are gone, 1/4 of a million to 1/2 a MILLION YEARS later this earth will be pristine again. 500,000 years is not even a blink of an eye in universal time, or earth time for that matter.

Anyway, say what you want,... yes we are affecting the climate/environment, but in no way to the extent to what one side wants everyone to believe.

The earth is alive! It is always changing, always has always will, until the end, whatever or whenever that may be.

I have yet to hear anyone deny the ice core samples, you know why? Because they show the truth, which is that Earth has for millions of years gone through cyclical pattens of hot and cold.

And you can also try to explain away all the tree rings in the world you want, the trees have no agenda and do not lie.

 

My emphasis was on thinking it is JUST political scheme/scam. Don't try to twist my words around on me.
I love when someone comes on and talks down everyone else.

 

"I love when someone comes on and talks down everyone else."

Hi Pot, my name is Kettle

 

Well taken. I guess I should heed my own advice and never consider anything 'irrevocable'. Fairly dumb on my part. I think 'climate change' is a moot point, believe it or not, rather, I believe that there are valuable lessons to be learned from our won ton consumption and unsustainable practices. We are rapidly consuming and rapidly expanding - by products of this are toxic, harmful, and dangerous to long-term survival of our species. Whether there is climate change occurring as a direct result of this or if it is a natural cycle in which we are entering the next phase is not as important as what is actually happening on this Earth. We are absolutely destroying this Mother Earth with no regard for how it will affect the future. The fact that we have even put this much CO2 into the atmosphere/environment and it is measurable is significant. We may agree to disagree on whether climate change is human influenced or not, and I respect that. I too have studied such things, though with only a BS in Earth and Atmospheric Sciences. What I learned and came to realize is that climate change is a natural and normal part of Earth's cycles and it could be any number of non-human related factors causing it. I'm a skeptic of climate change as well, though it may not seem like it. But I do believe humans have caused a difference.

 

In essence, I think most of us are saying the same things, i just read the rest of the comments here. We are aware of the destruction that we cause, and a lot of us do the best we can to live sustainably within our means. And, well, some of us just don't care, and are comfortable in our lives. This is okay too. but the future is in my generation's hands, and luckily things are changing. Unfortunately, short of quitting your life and going to live in an eco-village, there is not much more we can do at hte moment. The systems in place need to continue to change, which they will, because they are already starting to shift. We have a sea change occurring and that is hopeful. And ****, look at all the crazy things going on - Ray Kurzweil thinks the singularity will happen in the next 20 years - maybe a supercomputer AI will solve all our problems by realizing we are the problem and begin selective reduction in population...or maybe technology will continue to save and sustain us (cornucopia). Who knows? The future is an exciting thing.

Anyone ever read James Lovelock? I just picked up two of his books, I think his philosophy fits in well with what i'm currently interested in - towit, Gaia theory - that this earth and everything in it acts as one living organism, as a lung is to a human, forests are to the Mother. Haven't read it yet, but a great concept.

 

We can't all be iron-willed geniuses.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble dude, but the science behind climate change has been there since I was in grad school in the late 80's. The doubters, even the psuedo-scientists, have come out of conservative think tanks because it has been the policy of big-oil to cast doubt for years and years.

You say that you work in Marine Biology? Why are the polar ice caps melting? Why is sea level rising? How many millions of barrels of fossil fuels have we burned in the past 100 years? How many coal-fired power plants are spewing NOX and Sox and CO2 into the air (not to mention Mercury?) This shouldn't be about political agendas but about our planet.

 

Kind of like the so-called experts who purposefully set up their modeling to support warming and then go busted for it. THOSE experts?

 

lol, you should probably go back to grad school. The ice caps may be melting in Western Antartica, but ice is expanding in Eastern Antartica. It's actually cooling in Eastern Antartica. Btw East Antartica is four times the size of Western Antartica. Again, the media isn't getting it right when the majority of that region is cooling.

Do you know what you exhale and do you new there were higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere before humans were here? Research!

Also, it might be worth noting that big oil is supporting climate change and cap/trade bill because guess what? They benefit. You need to research before spewing fiction.

 

Good idea. That research would show fossil evidence that the earth was also much warmer during those periods (such as the Mesozoic) when CO2 levels were higher. There was little or no polar ice during that era. This is one of the primary links between CO2 levels and a warmer atmosphere since there is no solid evidence that the sun was putting out higher levels of radiation at that time.

 

I don't claim to be an expert on global climate change, but I do know what we exhale besides hot air.

I just checked out a NASA website about trends in Antarctic Sea Ice. It concluded:

"Unlike the Arctic, where the downward trend is consistent in all sectors, in all months, and in all seasons, the Antarctic picture is more complex. Based on data from 1979-2006, the annual trend for four of the five individual sectors was a very small positive one, but only in the Ross Sea was the increase statistically significant (greater than the natural year-to-year variability). On the other hand, ice extent decreased in the Bellingshausen/Amundsen Sea sector during the same period."

This was at http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SeaIce/page4.php

It certainly makes for some interesting reading. I also found it interesting that they were unable to support claims that sea ice was expanding in eastern Antarctic. There was an increasing trend that was not statistical.

You didn't respond to my questions about burning fossil fuels. Do you think we can burn unlimited amounts of coal and oil without seeing broad changes to the inner workings of our planet?

What do you think is causing Sea-level Rise?

 

guys, i have not read all the posts in this thread, but let me add my input on climate change. My background is in climate study.

The most common thing I hear from random people that annoys me the most, is when we have a cold week or a warm week, and people are so eager to deny or confirm global warming based on such a short time span. Weather is constantly changing and to vary from norm is expected constantly in any given season or year. When we think about global warming and climate change, we need to think in scales of decades.

This past month has been much colder than maybe any year this decade in the Mid Atlantic, but this is only 1 month... a very short snap shot of the past years and decades. And, yes a very small geographic sample of the earth. Everything on the earth's surface, core, and atmosphere are all connected together... and we know that this year we are in a positive el nino pattern, which is linked to colder temperatures on the east coast.

Almost all climate studies link to a warming trend since the industrial revolution, and much more so in the past 50 years. And, almost all climate scientists will agree that increasing CFC's like CO2 in the atmosphere is correlated to an increase in temperature.

And, perhaps you are skeptic... which is fine. But, my stance has always been, that if global warming impacts could be as devastating to our climate as studies suggest, wouldn't it be worth the economic risk to seek change. There are undoubtedly unknowns, but with such dramatic potential impacts, I personally would err on the side of change.

Thats all i have to say.

 

I don't know where you get your information from. Let me guess, the IPCC and the Al Gore movie. There is no direct evidence linking CO2 with climate change. The temp has changed regardless of the amount of CO2. I don't know what your researching about the sun and radiation. Numerous scientists have found factual evidence that solar radiation has caused the minor fluctuations in temperatures. All I'm saying is that CO2 is natural and an essential part of our atmosphere. Based on the evidence, I can't agree that CO2 causes temperature change. Even when you use common sense, you realize what heats the planet and allows life. The Sun. CO2 changing temperatures is in line with believing in the science of the wind chill factor.

Also, there were periods of high CO2 before humans existed and it will also happen regardless of humans. Humans can not output the same level of CO2 as the planet during a stage of evolution for the planet. So if someone can even actually prove that CO2 causes climate change, it will happen regardless of humans when the planet emits higher levels of CO2 again. Climate isn't controlled or affected by humans. We are not God. Only mother Earth can affect changes in climate

 

No idea why you would think that...the fossil record connecting high Mesozoic CO2 levels and a warmer globe have been around a lot longer than the IPCC Al Gore movie.

 

Regarding sea level change, there hasn't been any in 50 years and if there is an increase in the future it will be a few inches. Try researching Dr Nils-Axel Mörner who was chairman of the INQUA International Commission on Sea Level Change. It's pretty interesting how Washington bureaucrats use their influence and money to pass this off as fact. It's easy for them to put fear in citizens and have them believe anything they are told.

Here's an article I found about Dr Morner's basic points.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...sea-levels-is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html

 

yes, there is quite popular evidence that links increase in CO2 to climate change. This is a very well known process called the green house effect. I've looked at many studies, and have had colleagues in grad school do research on the topic.

yes, CO2 is an essential part of our atmosphere, and has been there for a long time. But, we are talking about CO2 change as a result of humans. Climate is always changing, but it is the human impact which defines global warming.

To understand the green house effect, you have to understand how the earth's atmosphere is composed and how solar radiation travels from the sun to the earth and vice versa. When you increase CO2, then solar radition comes down to the earth the same, but less radiation from the earth is released back out to space.

It is a little frustrating to hear people argue the subject without any background in physical climatology .