Does water temperature affect fin performance?

Discussion in 'Surfboards and Surfboard Design' started by Roy Stuart, Oct 12, 2015.

  1. LazyE

    LazyE Well-Known Member

    Aug 6, 2014
    Tell us how you really feel metard.lolz

    I still maintain I can look at a board and know if I can suerf it or not.I'm sorta embarassed by my lack of technical knowledge aboot suerf boards. The main thing is to have the right wax and your leash properly tied.(and your stuff hidden in the dunes just in case) I do like hearing peeps who are more knowledgeable than I discuss the pros and cons of different designs but do think it gets a little silly at times. Surfing is an art not a science.
     
  2. DonQ

    DonQ Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    Ok. Fair enough. All the science is above my mental capacities but are we talking about surfboard fins or de-icing airplane wings? The latter concerns me more. I just need to be able to track. Kudos Roy, keep the wheels a turnin.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015

  3. sisurfdogg

    sisurfdogg Well-Known Member

    Jun 17, 2013
    None of you science guys has replied to the hydrofoil suggestion. Here is the rationale - no board in the water, so you get a pure test of fin drag. You could pull a guy on a jet ski and he could let go at say 25 mph, and you could measure drag based on speed and length of ensuing glide. Then do it again with the same rider, same foil, same speed, same water surface conditions (glassy), much colder temp. That way you could see right away if it made a big or negligible effect in the real world.

    I know what you're thinking - it's a metal foil. But once you ran the initial tests in warm and frigid water, you could then change out the bottom wing with carbon fiber, graphite, etc, to compare materials and which operate with least drag under what temps. Capiche?
     
  4. Roy Stuart

    Roy Stuart Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2013
    There's a company in San Diego who can make a fin box which records lift and drag forces, price $14k.

    Better to test foils on the hull while surfing if possible.

    In the meantime the computer generated lift/drag etc polars are a very useful guide. One can go to airfoiltools.com and play around it's lots of fun but can do one's head in after a while as there are so many foils and variables.

    On the subject of testing foils on hydrofoils and examining length of glide my friend Pablo who does a lot of big wave foiling made a set with leading edge bumps and reported that the length of glide was dramatically greater i.e. as the foil slowed down he stayed 'on the foil' much longer. this corresponds with the research done on leading edge bumps, . as the foil slows down the angle of attack increases... (bumps give a much higher angle of attack capability, as well as more lift). Unfortunately Xfoil doesn't allow us to examine foils with bumps so we have to apply rules of thumb based on existing tests instead
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
  5. sisurfdogg

    sisurfdogg Well-Known Member

    Jun 17, 2013
    After riding the Gull Wing BLEF skeg, I will testify that makes sense. It has lots of lift compared to standard fins.
     
  6. Roy Stuart

    Roy Stuart Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2013
    I'm planning to make some hand foiled versions in G10, everything takes longer than expected though. I'm not sure if there's a mathematical formula for that or if it's just one of life's mysteries.
     
  7. Slashdog

    Slashdog Well-Known Member

    May 22, 2012
    Roy, your craft is interesting and once again, credit to you for sending that sample fin to the swellers. But I've got to say, if you're wondering whether fins perform differently in cold water, you have either:

    A) come up with another successful marketing thread, or

    B) run out of sheep to f*ck and finally snapped
     
  8. cepriano

    cepriano Well-Known Member

    Apr 20, 2012
    roy ur a cool dude but u lose me man.i cant follow these spaceboards with 14k$ finboxes.shyt I wish I had a 14k$ car.

    slashdog I'm going with b on that one
     
  9. rcarter

    rcarter Well-Known Member

    Jul 26, 2009
    BLEFF!!!!! Named for the noise Roy's sheep makes when he jams his dong in it.
     
  10. Roy Stuart

    Roy Stuart Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2013
    Think of it this way:

    No one would be in the least surprised if someone started a discussion about the difference in performance between fin sets which are almost the same except for some heavily marketed claim about the flex based on some strip of carbon fibre placed this way or that, even though the difference is untestable and not necessarily even supported by physics.

    The reason why the water temperature topic seems way out is because it hasn't been discussed before (to the best of my knowledge anyway) and hasn't been pumped up by massive marketing campaigns from surf industry corporations and their hired poster boys.

    It's ok for it to seem way out.
     
  11. Roy Stuart

    Roy Stuart Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2013
    Serious question: don't you feel that you have let yourself down by constantly posting gross, boring, and repetitive so called jokes of the lowest possible kind?

    Only seriously retarded types could find endless sheep jokes to be funny... surely you can do better than dragging yourself down to that level?

    If not then carry on....
     
  12. rcarter

    rcarter Well-Known Member

    Jul 26, 2009
    You are right dad. I've been bad and will go to my room and think about what I have done and try and be a better person...

    Wait, on second thought,

    GO FUK YOUR SHEEP you piece of monkey jizz. Jokes about you banging a sheep never get boring.
     
  13. LBCrew

    LBCrew Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2009
    After giving it some additional thought, I might suggest that fins might actually work BETTER in colder, denser water. For example, airplanes need to go faster on a hot day to get off the ground because it's harder to get the necessary lift required for flight in the less dense air. On a cold day there's more friction/drag, but the plane needs less speed to get the same response.

    This whole argument is moot, though... there's way too many other factors that confound this variable.
     
  14. Roy Stuart

    Roy Stuart Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2013
    The flow conditions are able to be analysed pretty closely as there are only a few variables involved.

    The change in water density between 3 degrees C and 20 degrees C is only 0.2%. On a typical thruster set the decrease if fin area required to produce the same lift as the fins would in warmer water is only .009sq inches per fin.

    That's assuming the same speed, speed will be going to be lower in cold water however due to the increase in viscosity and drag.


    Water Temperature:20 degrees C
    Water Density:
    998.2 kg/m^3

    Water Temperature:4 degrees C
    Water Density:
    1000 kg/m^3


    Viscosity changes are much greater than density changes.


    .
     
  15. DonQ

    DonQ Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    Saltwater or fresh water?
     
  16. LBCrew

    LBCrew Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2009
    Theoretically, yes... but under surfing conditions in the real world environment, not necessarily. Other factors will render the difference imperceptible, if not totally negated... primarily, the increased energy of a cold water wave compared to a warm water wave of the same size/shape.

    Another key factor is related to density change. Increased density results in higher planing and decreased drag... I would argue... cancelling out the increased friction from increased viscosity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
  17. kidrock

    kidrock Well-Known Member

    Aug 1, 2010
    Hey Roy, I fixed it for ya.
     
  18. Special Whale Glue

    Special Whale Glue Well-Known Member

    Oct 8, 2011
    Water temperature affects my d!cks' performance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
  19. Roy Stuart

    Roy Stuart Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2013
    That's for average salinity in 'salt' water.
     
  20. waterbaby

    waterbaby Well-Known Member

    Oct 1, 2012
    hope you all realize this thread is just a setup for a new line of fins: the hot and cold water BLEF series.