So, im running with a standard set of FCS foils for my quad fish. Although these fins perform well on the mushier, less steep sections like the cliffs, when it get to that low tide, at the beach break, Im still getting a little slide out on steeper turns. If I use the standard FCS foil fins on the back, inside fins, and got 2 of the actual FISH style fins (The nice, fat wide ones). Do you think that setup would lose a little speed, but get more stable grip when you really bury the rail? Im just thinking here. There are a ton of fins on craigslist, and I want to play around with it and get a tighter, locked in turning setup. These fins release well off the top and stuff, but they dont dig much on steep turns.... Any advice? Im a traditional thruster guy as ive previously stated... So im new to this quad stuff.
Here is the tech breakdown on them: Description M5 Sides + M2 Sides The FCS M4 quad design concept was pioneered by surfer, shaper, and inventor Bruce McKee. The M-Series has a flexible tip for forgiveness and control at high speed. The rear fin is designed to compliment the M-5 template in the front and works best in conjunction with McKee`s fin placement guide. The M2 Rear fin is designed for the lighter surfer and featuring inside foil technology and a consistently smooth flex pattern. This smaller and round fin is extremely fast and lively and sits between the G-1000 and G-3000 in area. Can be used across a variety of different conditions. The Inside Foil technology offers superior drive and hold. Glass flex offers a flex pattern modeled off a hand-foiled fiberglass fin and the ability to hold highly technical computer generated foils accurately. The M4 quad set can be used on a variety of board templates and offers drive and control while maintaining pivot and response. It is reliable in powerful conditions and ideal for surfers who love to load up through turns. Rear fin also available as a center or side fin. That is what I have on there now. Its a 5'7x19 3/4 performance fish. I was thinking of leaving the m2 rear fins (or even putting the m5 sizes there) and then running these on the front/sides with larger, wider fins.... Would this give me more torque and grip through turns? I am assuming the extra fin volume would help hold the rail through the turn more than these. Im thinking of something like this in the front: My m4's even say "Ideal for guys who like to load up through turns"... But I think it cant hold that much of a load. They release pretty easy./
i like these scimitar fins,they lock in and hold when i start to lose it.can't believe they held today,super critical below sea level inside out drops
These: ?? Future Fins Scimitar The Future Fins Scimitar is a constant variable plane fin, based on a variable algorithm. Starting with Future Fins plain Vector foil, the fin twists from the base and then cants in. Future Fins does it on three different angles of attack giving the Future Fins Scimitar maximum water attachment. The Future Fins Scimitar is a highly refined design and smooth riding fin that holds through more of the turn. The Scimitar is a very lively fin, best for rail-to-rail surfing. Future Fins Scimitar Fin Size: Height: 4.52 in. 11.5 cm Base: 4.37 in. 11.1 cm Area: 15.39 in.² 99.29 cm² Scimitar Trailer - Hatchet 450 Fin Size: Height: 4.50 in. 11.4 cm Base: 3.35 in. 8.5 cm Area: 13.2 in.² 85.16 cm² So, my next question is, what kind of board do you ride with these fins? A quad fish kinda thing? I would be looking for the FCS equivilant, as my plugs are not future.
Hi Zach, When you refer to "fish fins", I assume you're talking about the Gephardt style, low ratio "retro fish" keel fins. Interesting concept you have. I would normally say "yes" to the increased drive and speed the keel fins make. However, two factors could negate your theory. 1) The increased rocker, and particularly, the increased curve in the tail area of a quad fish (as opposed to a retro keel fish) could undo the usual benefits of the Geppy fins....MAYBE. 2) Does FCS even have a keel fin setup? I run LokBox on my quad, and there are Geppy style fins available for the LokBox. Never used 'em, tho. I would only run Geppy's solo, with no leading or trailing fins. I've also heard excellent things about the Scimitar fins in quad setups. Might be worth a try.
So, I know this angle doesn't show much, but here is my actual board, with the fin plugs, from above.... So yes, I was refering to the "keel" style fins. And yes, FCS makes quite a few styles of them. THe photo I posted above (the blue ones) are FCS keels. As for the rocker, it is a pretty flat entry rocker and not too much rocker in the back, so it is a standard san diego fish style template with some tweeks for performance.... So, my general idea here is to have a 2 fin Keel setup, with 2 m2 trailer fins on the quad... Im affraid of losing a ton of grip and drive if I go from 4 fins to a standard 2 keel fin setup. So, I am thinking I will get added grip through turns with the larger/wider front keel fins and normal foil trailors... Any thoughts?
So, technically, my m4s are "taller" than a keel style, but there is a ton more surface area on the slightly shorter, much wider/longer keel styles. So, im wonder if the shorter, wider, more surface are kind of fin would take me in the right direction, or backwards as far as where I need this setup to go?
zach, it's a neat concept you've got, but my initial reaction was that you'll end up w/ a very stiff, tracky board. you're used to a thruster set up, so i think that if you want more hold, you should seek out a fin w/ more rake. i really like the merrick template. also, what material does that mckee set use? it looks like the crappy plastic (fcs calls it "glass flex", which is bs). that could be part of your problem as well. if you're a bigger guy or you exert a lot of force on the fins thru turns, you'll be over-loading those plastic fins, causing them to over-flex & wash out. a stiffer material could eliminate that issue. fcs al merrick fin: about it: Performance Core material and construction is designed to deliver the feeling of a traditional fibreglass fin with the added performance of reduced weight. The RTM (Resin Transfer Moulding) process produces a lightweight fin with remarkable flex, a smooth feel and an impressive aesthetic. Side: Base: 4.61" / 117mm Depth: 4.70" / 119mm Area: 15.63"² / 10083mm² Sweep: 36.3º Foil: Flat maybe if you drop that in the front of your set up & keep the m-2 rears, you'll get the hold thru turns that you're looking for. i also think that this quad set might work for you: simon anderson s-25 fin (medium)
A couple thoughts... It appears as though that board is not set up with the McKee placement specs from the photo, so don't let that influence your decision. If you put keels in and another set of smaller fins, that board will be over-finned, IMO. By the look of it, I'd say putting keels alone in either spot would not be ideal... they'd be either too far forward, or to far back. I guess what I'm saying is that board is not set up for keels. I'd also suggest that you don't need bigger fins.... you need stiffer fins. The other option would be fins with more tip and/or more height, but not necessarily more area. I'm a big fan of the epoxy performance core fins, like some of the other guys have suggested. I have those green Simons, too, and like them, but I've never put them in a quad. But I think the flex, foil, and template (particularly the sweep) make them an excellent choice, and might solve your problem.
maybe its the fact that you are riding a wide board with a wide tail and trying to bury the rail on steeper sections? i do not think the fins are the issue here.
Good info here... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole idea of the quad is essentially splitting the fins from a fish in two. So, if you use keels plus trailers you'd def. have too much fin. I also like the idea of a possibly stiffer fin. And, something with more height (depth) You could take the front fins of your standard thruster set-up (you've got FCS's own template with the graphic that is similar to the infinity symbol right?) and add the G-1000 or Q-1000 as the rear fins. I think one of them has a 50/50 foil while the other is flat. They've got more depth and a pinch more sweep than the rear fins in the M4 set.
Merricks! The Lost Mayhem template Quad fin is big. I told my shaper I wasnt digging my new stick's drive, he asked me what fin i was running when i told him he siad that the wider tail needs big fins, I switched out my old G4 FCS and put in the Merrick template in Galss flex, huge difference! So much more drive. For that board you want flat foil on the inside of the fin. No insdie foil crap.
I agree with some of the others, keels up front with trailers will probably be too stiff feeling. I have a rount tailed fish, and I'm running a slightly odd setup that seems to be working. I have MRtx twins up front, and little GX double foiled rears (their the center fins). I tried this setup mainly because I read some reviews about how it worked well on the Proctor little rascal, which has a template similar to your fish (and mine). In any event, I've been pleased. Had it out in the last two swells we got, which together ranged from chest to just overhead, and not soft by any means, and they held well, heaps of speed, and I didn't think it felt to stiff either. Then again I'm about 220 lbs and used to riding twin keels, so I need a fair amount of fin. I've also heard good things about those GAM fins. If your smaller they might be good as fronts with some small rears (GX, G1000 etc...) Also, I thought those FCS keels were the ones designed for smaller surfers. I thought they put three plugs on their full size keels, but I could be wrong. Strong surfers have ben know to pull out plugs using keels in standard FCS plugs....Fusion plugs are supposed to help prevent this.
A few guys I've talked to, and this has been my experience as well, agree that fins with a foiled inside surface (meaning the ones that have a concaved surface on the inside) work best in better surf. Fins with flat inner surfaces work better in weaker surf. The only explanation I can think of for this is that while an inside foiled fin is designed to create less drag, there is minimal turbulence and better laminar flow at lower speeds, and you can't really feel any effect from the inside foil. But at higher speeds, where a greater degree of turbulence is created, and flow tends to become detached easier, the drag-reducing effects of the inside foil are greater... great enough to feel a difference. In other words, the faster you go, and the harder you turn, the better they work. That's why pros love 'em, and joes can't usually tell the difference... they generally surf better waves, go faster, and turn harder then the rest of us. However... since I don't like to spend a lot of money on fins, most of my shortboards have inside foil fins, because when the surf is good, I want them to work good. When the surf is bad, who cares. P.S.... I like glassed on keels
great info guys. I agree that the wider tail and fish shape are mostly the issue on the steeper faces, but im not talking inverted beach break drops. My only complaint, is that when you initiate a deep bottom turn on a faster hollower wave that requires a more vertical approach back up the lip, the board hesitates. It initiates the turn very well, with good drive, but the lack of the center pivot fins creates an exagerated turn for me. I can feel the two heel side fins release and it makes my ascent back up the wave not as steep as I would like. There is a similar effect off the top which requires me to initiate a hard top turn a bit early so I dont get caught up on the top.... The side fins releasing at the top actually help. I love that feeling. It lets you swing the board around... Most of the trouble, although the rails and wide tail dont help, are the loss of torque and sharp turning in a hard bottom turn... So the idea that I may want longer fins with more sweep makes sense as apposed to the wider, keel style... The physics of it make sense to me, that some added length will create a slightly deeper fin path in the water, thus making up a little bit for the lack of center pivot, with a stronger hold between the 2 side fins... Its a shame, I have those Merrick Fins, but they are futures!!! Im just going to go down to the shop, cause they have like 100 demo fins. I just wanted to narrow down a few that I should try... I will start with some longer fins and go from there... All my other FCS' arent any bigger than the m4s. All my shortboard fins are 4s or below for better release. The infinity fins I have are actually the g3s, so they are smaller, so that wouldnt help. I used to have the g4 and 5s but boke them over the years... So, I am going to have to hit the shop for some demos... I will try the keel, with small trailors as the last setup and let you guys know how it works out... The board performs like a BEAST when it was like waist to chest one day, but im just having trouble with the performance on slightly bigger, faster stuff... But these are conditions that arent that supreme, or I would have taken my shortboards out anyway... So, im riding head high+ waves on this board, but not huge barrel sections. Ive actually been on the cliffs for a week or so on it. It kicks as$ once you get it going and get some speed, but those initial bottom turns are losing power.
If you're looking at the turning ability of a tri-fin, but the drive and speed of a keel fish, you should: Look at this, http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1009008 and this. http://www.wetsandsurfshop.com/Rainbow-Canard-Quad-LokBox-Fin-Set_p_1469.html I've been using Pavel's Speed Dialer (Canard Quad) setup for a few years now, and I'm very happy with the results. The setup is basically a Geppy fin cut in half and split up to accommodate a quad setup (but it's a bit more complicated than my simplistic example). Another consideration may be to put the smaller fins in front and the larger fins in back, creating a "Twinzer" a la Larry Mabile. But I'm sold on the Pavel system.
twinzer fin placement is a lot different then where the plugs are set for zach's board. as seen in the pic, there needs to be a bit of overlap in the twinzer set up, & the fins are actually placed a little differently. i'm actually going to be ordering one from brian wynn in a couple weeks as a small wave summer groveller/anti-longboard.
