Glassed In VS Fin Systems?

also, spoke w/ marlin today about FCS fins w/ his construction & he is not doing them & has no plans to do so. we had a very interesting discussion about plug durability & such. always like talking w/ him...

 

42....Please, share...

 

OK, I know I supply specific fin systems, and there's a reason for that, but here's the facts about fins and fin systems. I've been schooled by Larry Allison who is a fin guru has been making fins for 4 decades (officially 40 yrs this upcoming April) as has designed and produced fins for all the big fin companies over the years...

Fact #1: Glass-ons have the best performance for the reasons LBCrew states. No flex in the base and a slight twisting flex in the upper 1/3rd of the fin tip. From what I'm told a deflection of about 3/16" at the tip is optimal flex for performance.

Fact #2: Removable fins and Fin systems were initially designed soley for the purpose of shipping more boards in a box and stacking more boards in a surf shops rack. Some of these shipping systems are still around today, they're the ones that need repairing all the time for various design flaws. They cannot withstand the tremendous forces a large area fin and powerful surfer imposes on them through a turn.

Fact #3: Newer fin systems designed in the past 5-7 years are made for SURFING. They have superior strength and some provide the ability to adjust your fin positions to dial in the way your board rides. Some systems have a compression fit with the fin to get as close to glass-on feel as possible. Unfortunately these better fin systems do not have the marketing $$ to buy pro surfers, give super sweet deals to big name board manufactures, and full page ads in magazines, so you probably don't even know they exist unless you make boards yourself.

Fact#4: Mostly all mass marketed fins are made in Asia. There are only a handful of smaller US fin manufacturers who make fins for performance (I could go on about the inferior Asian materials and processes but I won't)

But as stated before, you probably can't tell the difference anyway so who cares?
Go have fun and surf!

~Brian
www.greenlightsurfsupply.com

 

I know that Taj Burrow gets his boards with the fins glassed on. (only pro i've heard uses them)

And as for my opinion, I definitely prefer removable fins. Much less likely to ruin the board if they hit the reef/sandbar, and are a lot easier to travel with. I could see if you were a pro who gets a new board every three days, but for the average surfer it doesn't really make sense (IMO).

Just last week I was trying out a board when the middle fin hit bottom and got ripped off. No damage to the board at all, and replacing one fin is a lot cheaper than paying to get it re-glassed

 

greenlight-what makes pro-box better than futures?

 

I like the fact that Probox has removable fin cant inserts, and you can switch out and experiment until you find the perfect setup for a specific board and break. Probox also gives you some fore/aft adjustability. Futures does not. Probox also accepts FCS fins. Futures require their own fins exclusively.

Both are full tab systems, which is ideal. Futures have one screw... Probox two, if that matter to you. Futures appears to have put a lot of money and time into fin design, and offer a selection of foils... for those who can feel the difference. Probox does a lot of different template designs, and the average surfer is likely to feel a bigger difference in flex (materials) and template over foil.

 

!

4 System components:

1. The Fin Box:
Other than the option to adjust your fin cant and fore/aft position, Proboxes have a larger bone shaped footprint that displaces much higher lateral forces than Futures. FCS Fusions have also adopted the bone shape to make them stronger...

2: Material:
Proboxes are molded (in the USA) with glass reinforced polycarbonate resin. Bomb proof.
Not sure what Futures boxes are but they're not polycarb and certainly not glass reinforced. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I know their production fins are molded with Nylon which is a plastic on the weaker and softer side of the spectrum.

Some kiteboarders use ProBoxes with 6" deep fins and drop 20 foot airs right onto the fins. No fin, box, or board breakage.

3. Box installation:
Correct ProBox installation involves fiberglass reinforcement in the routed pocket for additional strength which dissipates forces away from the foam, like a longboard centerfin box (again, when properly installed, but some glass shops 'forget' the fundamentals for speedier productivity)
Futures are installed tight to the foam and eventhough they're glassed over that's not saving them from rolling over with applied force.

3. Fin base tab
Probox fins (composite molded plastic or fiberglass) have a solid base tab, a V notch where two set screws push it down into the insert for a compression fit resulting in a stiff fin base. Futures, in the past few years, started making their higher end fins with a cut out 'truss base' to reduce weight but that actually allows the fin tab to flex laterally in the fin box which is the opposite of what you want!

Futures does have some nice templates and foils though....

Did I mention ProBox also uses all FCS fins and you can modify Futures fin base to fit ProBox?

I'm not busting on Futures at all, just stating facts. I actually have a set of Futures Scimtars with ProBox base and they're one of my favorite setups to ride.

~Brian
www.greenlightsurfsupply.com
Shape Your Surfing Experience

 

we talked about a wide range of things...how lok-box, is kind of the "red-headed step-child" of fin systems...when was the last time you saw a shop stock any of their fins?...but how it's really one of the best systems out there...strong, light (esp. w/ the new micro-box), adjustable, & the wide array of fin templates & materials available.
i also floored him w/ the revelation that i've never blown, broken, or cracked an fcs plug (he was hoping to get me to switch based on how often i'm repairing plugs...) & why his bamboo fins stand out above the others that simply have a bamboo core, similar to the honeycomb insert found in rtm fins. you get a much better & livelier flex pattern w/ marlin's bamboo than you do w/ a bamboo cored fin...his fins have "twang". hard to explain, but i think his fins are the closest i've ever found to real, old-school glass-ons. but, in a way, they're better.
he also mentioned that fin breakage & plug issues are the main factors preventing him from making fins for fcs plugs...people have a hard time accepting fin breakage when they're dropping over $100 for a set of his fins. sure, they're hand-made & are solid bamboo, but look at how upset people get over breaking a $10 plastic fin! marlin's fins are also not as easy to replace. he likes how the lok-box system is designed to eject the fin before breakage occurs to the fin or box. the fact that his fins float helps the matter. if you pop a fin out, you simply retrieve the fin & put it back in the box. little or no damage to either. he didn't say so, but i think he also doesn't like the dual-tab style of fcs fins. it probably compromises the fin strength somewhat. after all, they are 100% bamboo except for the base, which is g10 fiberglass. that's where the strength & rigidity of the base comes from & if that's compromised, then the fin is compromised.
long story short, i wouldn't expect to see marlin doing fcs fins any time soon.

 

why do you only offer pro-box? if i'm "shaping [my] surfing experience", shouldn't i be able to choose the fin system i want?

 

42... I'm pretty sure Brian offers FCS plugs, Fusions, and Probox. Makes sense because they're all compatible, and FCS is what most people have. I might be speaking out of turn here, but I think that's correct, and I believe he also offers his own bamboo fins as glass-ons???

Cost is certainly a factor. Might even be more important to most people than performance, ultimately. When you say solid bamboo, aren't these fins glassed? I know a lot of bamboo fins are foam core, bamboo veneer, and glass. What exactly is Marlin doing with his bamboo fins? Brian made me a quad set of bamboo fins with carbon fiber... just a prototype, but the possibilities are endless...

 

i'm not a fin guy,but i want the best fins,and i don't trust myself with adjusting forward or back,or changing the cant.i just like getting a board with fins and almost never take them out or change them.i get twin fins glassed on.single fins with a box,and i have occasionally moved up or back or changed fins.for quads i get futures because i like them better than fcs being on top of the board.curious what's gonna happen to me with this new 5-box convertible i just ordered.pro-box sounds too complicated.i don't surf well enough for any of it to make much difference.

 

i checked out the greenlight website...should've done that sooner. i didn't bother b/c i recalled another time when i was on it & only saw pro-box, a system of which i'm not a big fan. there are fcs fins available on there & the bamboo fins on there are similar to marlin's, but it looks as though they have more glass around the bamboo, where marlin uses the minimal amount of glass possible & has a uni-directional grain pattern, which gives the fins maximum "twang" & liveliness.

here's the 6.25" center fin that i use in my 6'4" hp bonzer:


you can see how the grain of the wood goes in the same direction & it's very vertical, which gives the fin a really lively feeling...very little glass surrounding the fin, so it doesn't dampen the flex of the bamboo at all.

 

I have installed and ride both Probox and FCS Fusion boxes. They are both good, but at this point I have a preference for the FCS Fusion boxes, mostly for reasons of simplicity and speedier board-building.

I like the fact that Fusions are installed under the fiberglass. Not only is it stronger with 1-2 layers of glass covering the box, BUT, it saves me 2-3 hours building a board because I can laminate the board at the same time as the resin in the box is curing. With Probox, you install AFTER the hot coat, so the fin-box install process is an additional pour/cure of epoxy that adds several hours to the process.

I also think that the FCS Fusion requires substantially less resin for the install then Probox. This makes the system lighter weight. With Probox, you need about 1oz of resin per box. With Fusion, I was using maybe 1 oz total for a quad install.

Another thing I noticed with Probox is that because the box is installed post hot-coat, there is the possibility of the box delaminating from the foam/glass along the side. This has happened to a few of my boards. A gap forms between the sidewall of the box and the board. When you tighten the fins in, the gap disappears, but when you take them out, it reemerges. I have seen water leak out of that crack, which makes me nervous.

Probox does have the advantage with the adjustable cants and more front-back adjustment. But the FCS fusion still has a small amount of front-back adjustment which is useful.

As far as performance, I consider myself a reasonably capable surfer and also pretty big (5'10" 180) and I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. Much more important than the box is the size, shape, placement, and material of the fins themselves.

 

Absolutely, shorepoints.

The big things matter more than the little things for most of us. The rest is fine tuning. But I suggest that toe, cant, and placement are "big things." If you've never switched out inserts, or adjusted a cluster, you gotta try it. It's a pretty remarkable change in performance, even for us average joes. Back in the day you had to break your fins off and reglass them on to figure that stuff out.

As for that bead of water around Probox boxes... if the box is cleaned and roughed up well, you'll get a good bond between the box and resin, and won't see that "crack." However, even if you do, no worries... it's resin, not foam, and the core is sealed. If the resin fails, the box will tear out, and I've never seen that happen. Essentially, the resin creates a form-fitted mold that fits the box, and the compression fitting, as you've noticed, tightens the whole assembly. It made me nervous at first, too... but I've had boards fail before the boxes.

42... grain direction makes all the difference in the world, right?! A lot of solid wood fins have the grain swept too far back. And those beautiful inlaid wood fins??? Horrible flex pattern! Might as well just glass the crap out of them and make them stiff and heavy as steel.

Funny, though... I think a well foiled marine ply keel fin is the ultimate for a retro fish. But then again, the words "flex" and "fish" shouldn't even be put into the same sentence...

 

interestingly, the fin that brought my first bonzer, a bing bonzer 3 in the style of the russ short model, to life was a fins unlimited dale dobson fin w/ wood inlay...but, like the 101 fin, the grain is very vertical & not swept back toward the trailing edge of the fin. so even though there's a lot of glass surrounding the wood, i think the wood got to "act naturally" under the load placed on it in turns, giving the fin a feeling similar to marlin's. it's actually the fin i liked best in my bonzers prior to getting on the bamboo trip...

have you read the most recent surfer's journal (vol. 20, #1)? there's a great article in there on steve lis & the development of the fish...very interesting read.

i'm a full-on fin geek...i've got so many fin sets & random fins floating around. but i like messing around w/ them. tightening up the cluster, spreading it out, swapping center fins out for different ones, etc...it just trips me out how much difference a small change makes! i will say, tho, that one fin set i've never had to or been interested in messing w/ is the fcs ci template in rtm. for me, those fins are IT! i just wish i could find a set in solid fiberglass...i still like that best (for thrusters). a close second would be the fcs pg-7. i run them on my step-up. gives the board a nice, solid feeling in bigger surf.

 

I'm not really a "fin guy," sorry to admit. I just get by knowing the basics, but like everybody, I have my preferences.

I just put the Simon fins in my big wave board... they work great. I think I have the 6 degree inserts in, with a double concave vee bottom. I was saying to a friend the other day the board feels very short-boardy for a 7'0, even in large surf. I think that has a lot to do with the fin/bottom config.

 

the simon anderson fin template is one that i've never tried, but i'd like to.
is your 7'0" designed as a step-up or a mini-gun? it seems really big...i thought my step-up, at 6'8", was bigger than most.
i think i'm going to start a "quivers" thread once the board i'm waiting on is finished.

 

It's a design I refer to as an "East Coast Gun" for the biggest days of the year. Easy to paddle in a lot of wind and current, gets in a little earlier, faster down the line... but designed to handle all that speed and energy comfortably without feeling too big and bulky... handles more like a shortboard. A touch of panel vee in the entry, to flat, to reverse vee with deep double concaves, going to flat behind the trailing fin. Pretty much a racy mini-gun template and rocker, scaled to 7'0. Rounded pin thruster. Rails are typical modern PSB rails, but the hard edge fades out and rolls under a little sooner than on a shortboard. And those Simon fins provide great hold.

I really don't have a step-up. My PSB is a 6'6 round tail (I'm 6'1", 195lbs, and 47 years old) and that's good up to a few feet overhead. Once it gets up into the DOH range I grab the 7'0. I seem to make more waves, and generally have a more enjoyable session with it.