Surfbort medical advise (aka ding repair)

Discussion in 'All Discussions' started by NJsurfer30, May 11, 2018.

  1. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    What is the best way to deal with a delamination on the deck of the board as a result of shitty ding repair? Very elementary questions follow, I don't really know much about ding repair, board design, or really anything mechanical, using my hands, or involving fixing anything at all...

    Repaired a large ding on the bottom of my longbort almost a year ago now. Apparently I did a shitty job and it was not watertight (or maybe became not-water-tight over time)... discovered this the other day when I noticed a pretty big delaminated bubble on the deck right above where the repair was (stretches more than halfway across the deck, probably 6-8 inches wide and 2-3 inches long). Obviously priority 1 is to fix the original repair and do a better job. But what to do about the delam? Will give it a closer look but initial impression was that the foam underneath was not yet soft/spongy/rotted, which I presume is a good thing.

    I guess my main questions are: 1) do I need to do anything about it other than seal the leak (i.e. will it either get worse over time or increase the likelihood of breaking the board if I don't), and if yes, 2) do I need to cut out the whole section and put new glass (which sounds complicated and will look like shit but is obviously vastly preferable to breaking my board), or is there a simpler fix?
     
  2. BassMon2

    BassMon2 Well-Known Member

    Jan 27, 2015
    Cut out the delam, if foam is good, reglass. Just take your time and don't rush through the steps or cut corners.

    Iv heard of people putting holes in the delamed glass and injecting with resin. Basically a method that requires no cutting or reglassing. Iv never done it but it sounds easier to me. Don't know how well it actually works though. Someone else will have to chime in on that one
     
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  3. DawnPatrol321

    DawnPatrol321 Well-Known Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    I'm sorry to be the one to give you the bad news bud, but your boart has delamination AIDS.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  4. LBCrew

    LBCrew Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2009
    I've done it many times. Chances are the ding on the bottom and the delam are not related, and chances are you're talking about a standard PU/PE boart, which are all prone to deck delamination: PU surfboard foam is considered "rigid" polyurethane foam, made of "cells," or tiny bubbles of PU with rigid walls. The problem is that this rigid material, when crushed, collapses the cell, and repeated crushing turns the rigid foam into dust, compromising the bond between with skin (glass) and foam - delamination.

    If you want to rehab the board, you can cut away the delaminated foam and re-glass with two or three layers of 6oz. This works well if the board has no color or artwork, so you end up with a white patch on an otherwise yellowed board. If your board had color, you can cut a big cemicirle with a little hinge, flap it back, clean up the foam, and laminate it back down. This at least looks better (less noticeable).

    Either way, it's really important that you clean out all of the dust from the delaminated area, so you get good, clean foam to laminate to. If you do the flap method, a single layer of 6oz over the entire SANDED flap will seal the flap edges. Hotocat and sand. If you do the cutaway method, your first two patches should be cut to fit the cutaway... use the piece you removed as a template. The third layer should overlap the edge of the patch a good 3-4 inches, so you can fair it out nicely. Hotcoat and sand.
     
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  5. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    This is helpful, but I have follow-up questions and not sure I understand all the terminology. Thank you immensely for your support in my fight against the delamination AIDS. I apologize for the barrage of super-elementary questions. I am an absolute novice at this stuff... I've filled in a handful of small-to-medium dings over the years and that's about the extent of my repair experience. It's been years since I've even done a simple repair the properre way, i.e. mixing resin with Q-cell (did I spell that right?) to fill in a large hole, then re-glassing with cloth and resin. Assuming that was even the properre way, idk, that's how my stoner friends told me to do it. Have also used suncure and more recently solarez but with generally shitty results (hence the cracks appearing in the most recent repair).

    Yes, it's a traditional P/U board. Good to know how delamination occurs, that makes sense. I guess I follow why it's likely unrelated to the other repair, though it seems like a weird coincidence that it's right over the same spot, and there's another very small delamination further toward the nose which is right in line with a small crack on the rail (also need to fix that).

    Anyway, the board has color and artwork so the flap method is definitely the way I want to go. Though I'm kinda terrified of permanently ruining the board in my mechanical ineptitude.

    A few more questions:

    1) What's the best tool for cutting the flap?
    2) How to best clean the dust out from underneath? Will a shop vac work or is that too much power and will cause other issues?
    3) What exactly needs to be sanded? Edges of flap and adjacent board glass that I'm reattaching it too? Entire top of flap? Underside of flap too, or just clean the dust off that well?
    4) Do I put any sort of resin or adhesive underneath the the flap when putting it back down, or just lay it down smooth and glass over the entire section on top?
    5) I'm guessing 6oz refers to the cloth thickness? One layer over the flap should be good?
    6) What is hotcoating? Do I need any tools or materials other than cloth, resin, sandpaper, and something to cut with for this repair?
     
  6. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    I've heard that too, though the more complicated way seems more trustworthy... I've a bad habit of looking for easy quick fixes and regretting it later, not necessarily just with surfbort repair (though that too... see suncure), but life in general (dieting, working out, cooking, my job, etc...).
     
  7. Kanman

    Kanman Well-Known Member

    880
    May 5, 2014
    If you’re that worried, maybe go to a reputable ding repair guy.

    My advise for the more basic questions are to go to YouTube. Otherwise, listen to LBCrew. That guy knows his stuff.

    Upload some pics for us to better assess.
     
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  8. headhigh

    headhigh Well-Known Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    Based on this I would strongly recommend finding a ding repair guy and paying him to fix the board.

    The last thing you want is to open up the wound, figure out you are in over your head, and then have to pay twice as much to have it fixed correctly... or possibly never ride the board again.
     
  9. LBCrew

    LBCrew Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2009
    1) I use a utility knife. It's crude but effective. Make sure you cut just outside the delaminated perimeter, to good, well-bonded foam and glass.
    2) I blow out the dust. Reverse the flow of air on the shoppe vac, use a leaf blower, or a can of dust-off.
    3) Under the flap, clean the dust off well, and do not sand. In fact, do not sand anything until the flap is re-laminated back down. More on this later.
    4) Mix up some resin and hardener and spread a thin layer onto the exposed foam evenly. Lay the flap back down, and weight it down. I use gallon paint cans, dumbells, whatever... to make sure it's fully flat and tight back down. Resin will squeeze out around the perimeter, so clean that up after you weight down the flap. This will re-laminate the flap to the deck foam. Clean up all excess resin that squeezes out, or you'll have a lot of unnecessary sanding later.
    5) Once the flap is laminated down and fully cured, sand the surface of the flap and the surrounding area down to the weave. What you're doing is removing the hotcoat (a layer of resin painted over the laminated cloth) and prepping it to be re-hotcoated. You'll also be sanding down any little edges of the flap that are sticking up. The whole thing should be sanded smooth. Don't worry about it being perfectly flat... you'll create problems. Just get it smooth, and you should sand until you start to see the weave of the cloth appearing in spots. Again... you're sanding the old hotcoat off and fairing the area smooth. The sanded area should extend about 5-6 inches outside the perimeter of the flap. Once sanded, cut a patch of 6oz. cloth about 2-3 inches larger than the flap, so the perimeter of the flap is well covered. Laminate this patch down with resin, getting all of the excess out, but leaving the cloth fully saturated, but flat and tight.
    6) Tape off the sanded area around the patch and re-hotcoat the whole area by painting on a layer of catalyzed resin with a 3" natural bristle brush... the inexpensive ones from Home Cheapo. Pull the tape when the resin starts to gell; sand when fully cured. You may have to hotcoat twice, if you're a lousy sander.
     
  10. JayD

    JayD Well-Known Member

    Feb 6, 2012
    If it is an older board, I would fix it yourself...follow LB's advice. If you take to somebody for repair you will probably spend $50-$100. Is it worth it on an old board? Plus, if you fix it you will learn a lot about board repair...which will be a good skill to have being NJsurfer. I have paid to have a nose tip put back on a newer board. Otherwise, I just learned over time to fix dings. Can't say I enjoy doing it though!
     
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  11. DawnPatrol321

    DawnPatrol321 Well-Known Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    Good advise. It gets easier and easier with every ding you repair. You will make mistakes and learn from them. One thing I found is most of my mistakes were fixable. I finally got to the point where I enjoy doing repairs and cleaning up my boarts. Listening to guys like LBCrew and Mitchell, and a few others will go a long way. Youtube is great too.
     
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  12. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    Your recommendation makes sense, though that's been my approach to nearly everything my entire life until recently, which is how at age 36 i am just beginning to learn how to fix simple things around the house/in my car. Shit, I didn't know how to change a headlight until a couple years ago, and would have to go to a mechanic (it's actually a massive pain in the ass on my 2011 outback, but that's beside the point).

    Conceptually, I definitely follow the process LBCrew described, pending the few clarifications I asked about, so I want to at least take a shot at this myself and hopefully acquire some experience/knowledge that will serve me in the future. I have the funds to get it professionally repaired (even if I make it worse first), but I have the time to learn how to do it right too. Need to draw a line in the sand at some point and start learning how to do things myself, lest I end up like my parents who don't even own or know how to use a drill and have to pay someone to fix literally anything, from a flat tire on a bike to the simplest household repairs.
     
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  13. DawnPatrol321

    DawnPatrol321 Well-Known Member

    Mar 6, 2012
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  14. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    Awesome awesome awesome, thanks. This all makes sense and I can visualize myself doing all of this. And I don't really see how I could mess it up too badly, as long as I don't cut all the way through the foam or cut the stringer I can always take it to get repaired.

    After putting down the new cloth/resin (5), I'm assuming wait till fully dry, then tape and hotcoat? Do I sand in between these steps or not? Catalyzed resin = resin with hardener mixed in?
     
  15. headhigh

    headhigh Well-Known Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    I say go for it then. You certainly have the right attitude. Just follow LBCrew's direction as closely as you can.

    For me the golden rule is to spend the extra time to make sure all your surfaces are completely prepped and cleaned before you start glassing. Prep is like 90% of the work, and if you get it right the rest will go nice and smooth.

    Take your time, and be patient. A couple cold beers will also help if you're into that.
     
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  16. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    Worde. And great advice regarding most of the time spent on prep, and beers... which come to think of it probably applies to nearly all house, car, and gear repairs.

    At my current level of competence/experience, I would immediately outsource anything that involved reshaping nose/rails/tail, touched a fix box, or required me to cut out a significant amount of foam, because I can easily see how a major mistake could permanently ruin the boart. But in this case, the likelihood of a truly fatal mistake seems low (unless I'm hammered drunk when making the initial cut), so might as well go for it.
     
  17. NJsurfer30

    NJsurfer30 Well-Known Member

    268
    Dec 28, 2016
    Plus I've had the board for about 15 years, and while I wouldn't be stoked to replace it given longboard prices these days, I've already accepted that's a thoroughly possible scenario every single time I take it out in hollow head high + waves (which has been a whole lot of times over the past year), so... it is what it is.
     
  18. headhigh

    headhigh Well-Known Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    You're on the right track, man. Make sure to take pics so we can see your progress.
     
  19. LBCrew

    LBCrew Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2009
    Yes... wait until your cloth lamination is completely cured before going to the next step... which I left out one small detail: Once the patch is cured, fair the edge of the patch all the way around with 80 grit. You do not need to sand the whole patch.

    Catalyzed resin is resin and hardener.




    Special note: There are three types of polyester resin - lam resin, sanding resin, gloss resin.

    Lam resin is for laminating, and leaves a sticky surface that does not sand easily. But that sticky surface bonds better to whatever you put over it, whether that be another layer of cloth, or the hotcoat.

    Sanding resin is lam resin with a surfacing agent additive (wax dissolved in styrene). It's used for hotcoating because the wax rises to the surface before it cures, then when it cures, it has a waxy film that will allow the resin to cure without a sticky surface, so it sands easily.

    Gloss resin is sanding resin with yet another additive (leveling agent, cobalt, some other stuff) that raises it's barcol hardness so it can be polished to a high shine.

    Chances are you'll be getting one kind of resin for this repair... sanding resin... which you will be laminating with. If that's the case, you should LIGHTLY sand between applications to improve bonding between layers. It's not absolutely required, but it does improve the bond between the lam and hotcoat. Your other option is to buy lam resin and surface agent separately... use lam resin for laminating and add the surface agent for the hotcoat. This takes some experience, so I don't recommend it on your first shot. But something to keep in mind for the future, when your skills improve.
     
  20. SCOB3YVILLE

    SCOB3YVILLE Well-Known Member

    370
    Nov 16, 2016
    Go follow joe ropers Surfboard repair on instagram.

    He documents a lot of repairs. Could give you some pointers
     
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